Authoring Kit Updates Needed

[chiefweasel]

Understood RavenX, but I am not looking to learn, I am looking to do. I'm not a programmer, never have been, but dont have the mindset for it. As such I don't/can't learn the compiler, I want to be able to create and do, much like I can in the editor. Its great that you want to learn the compiler, but the vast majority of users of HL don't. We dont have the background to even start that sort of thing.

But even the editor got a much needed upgrade going from d20 to PF. PF is so much easier to work with. That is the sort of thing I am looking/asking about for the authoring kit. For instance, shouldn't I just be able to define what die size/number values I want to use for abilities? Just a pull down menu with them listed. Or be able to rename the abilities, just the text of them.

With those you things you could most likely use the PF editor to jury-rig a game system like Traveller. Just by using the same tabs as PF does.

Just a thought.

[Mathias]

chiefweasel, even what you're asking about for abilities is not something you should expect to be able to accomplish unless you have a basic knowledge of scripting. In every game I've seen, ability scores aren't just simple numbers - each game has ways you can modify them - for example, in pathfinder, you can add magic items to improve them, and you can improve them every 4 levels, and you can cast spells to improve them, and you can take ability score penalties, etc., etc. Every game has its own set of modifications that can be made, and every game handles the details of how those modifications interact with each other in its own way. There is no way that the complexity of ability scores can be reduced to a few drop-downs.

[RavenX]

Originally Posted by chiefweasel

Understood RavenX, but I am not looking to learn, I am looking to do. I'm not a programmer, never have been, but dont have the mindset for it. As such I don't/can't learn the compiler, I want to be able to create and do, much like I can in the editor. Its great that you want to learn the compiler, but the vast majority of users of HL don't. We dont have the background to even start that sort of thing.

But even the editor got a much needed upgrade going from d20 to PF. PF is so much easier to work with. That is the sort of thing I am looking/asking about for the authoring kit. For instance, shouldn't I just be able to define what die size/number values I want to use for abilities? Just a pull down menu with them listed. Or be able to rename the abilities, just the text of them.

With those you things you could most likely use the PF editor to jury-rig a game system like Traveller. Just by using the same tabs as PF does.

Just a thought.

Not really, because a system like deathwatch or dark heresy would require serious changes. Looking at Pathfinder, I couldn't use the Psionics from Psionics unleashed to handle psychic powers in 40k. It just would not work. In my opinion, the kit wiki could use more examples of things, but without a basic knowledge of how the software works you would have a difficult time repurposing an existing piece of code.

I'm not a programmer by profession, chiefweasel, I'm a mathematician. Basic programming coursework was required in my major field of study so we could program mathematical algorithms, but hero lab is not a simple program. I'm not looking for eigenvalues to solve a problem involving electrons in quantum mechanics. I had to learn scripting before I could hack open the hood and start building a game system. You can repurpose the entirety of the skeleton files, but it can still take time. I'm 1.45 years into deathwatch and it's still unfinished as of yet.

[chiefweasel]

Mathias, agreed with the fact that every game ssytem is different. But what you aere talking about in the last post are things that are dealt with in the Editor. Once I have a stat for an ability I can use the editor to apply all the changes and such as needed. The question i have occfur before that, for instance how can i change the text of the DEX ability to read AGI? Even if I didnt change any of the fuctionality at all of the ability, I would still need to use the authoring kit and code an entirely new game system, just to change a text field. That is tremedious amount of work just to change a text box.

Now I realize that you wouldnt want to release the code for each game system, and there are IP rights involved.

What I would like to see is the authoring kit more like the editor. With tabs that allow me to make changes, even if just cosmetic, to a game system as I create it.

For example, I created the Dragonstar files a while back using the PF editor. If the DEX was AGI for that gae system and no other changes were needed, I would not have been able to do the work. It would have required a programmer come in and create the panels and all the routines and code for everything, even though all that code already exists for the PF system. So a simple change like that would be a monumental effort and one beyond the capabilities of most of the people on the boards.

Ravenx, I'm glad that you are able to do the programming, its great that there are people on the boards that can and will create these files. But as yu stated, you're 1.45 years into the Deathwatch game ssystem and not done. Wouldnt have beeen better if you could have just clicked a few buttons and had half of that work done already?

And lets be honest, we're not talking about entering data, like skills, or spells, or feats, I am talking about just being able to set up the basics, just ike the Editors does now, but a little more expanded, so you could change texts fields, add a skill, add an ability (feat), add armor, add weapon, things like that. Then we could jump to the editor and add all the information in.

[RavenX]

[QUOTE=chiefweasel;172376]
Ravenx, I'm glad that you are able to do the programming, its great that there are people on the boards that can and will create these files. But as yu stated, you're 1.45 years into the Deathwatch game system and not done. Wouldnt have beeen better if you could have just clicked a few buttons and had half of that work done already?[QUOTE]

Not necessarily, I enjoy tinkering with things and figuring out how they work. Think of it this way, I've struggled at times to get this far, I admit that, but Mathias, Aaron, and Colen at times, have helped me when I asked for assistance. Granted they're not machines that pop out answers on demand, they are human and need sleep, food and such like every other living thing. The things they've taught me and that I've struggled to learn in coding this system will make future projects easier in the long haul. I can take the experience I gained in this system and apply it to something else later on. Easier isn't always better in my eyes. It cheapens the learning curve and makes your accomplishments less meaningful. When I get something working right in Deathwatch, I feel good about it. It's taken a long time to get progress to where it is, but consider that during the past year and a half that I've worked on this, I have also worked on projects for Lone Wolf Development as a data file author nearly the entire time, I've written a novel and been penning my own campaign setting using Pathfinder's rules as well which compiles over 20 years worth of personal notes into one tome (some of them I can barely still read what I wrote, the pages are yellowed horribly now). I've been quite the busy beaver this year. Deathwatch could have been done sooner if I had time to work on it exclusively, but having a job and other obligations makes that difficult.

Originally Posted by chiefweasel

And lets be honest, we're not talking about entering data, like skills, or spells, or feats, I am talking about just being able to set up the basics, just ike the Editors does now, but a little more expanded, so you could change texts fields, add a skill, add an ability (feat), add armor, add weapon, things like that. Then we could jump to the editor and add all the information in.

Adding skills, abilities, talents, traits, etc. doesn't take me as long as some people might think it does, chiefweasel. My typing speed is well above 120 words per minute. I can copy text from books into the editor rather quickly. However, my last couple weeks of work has been BUILDING the actual Editor for Deathwatch (which will likely be renamed 40K Roleplay sometime in the future). The Editor from the skeleton file has been difficult to build, but I've figured out most of it. I'd like more examples in the kit wiki for reference purposes, as I feel the 4e and Savage Worlds editor file is insufficient to learn everything I need, but I have Mathias here answering many of my questions as they arise. I'm still hacking apart the Deathwatch thread for unanswered questions as well.

Better examples of code in the kit wiki would more than make up for some issues, but one thing I've learned about hero lab is that even the compiler itself isn't 100% finished. There are still areas that our favorite team of code monkeys have to add to. I appreciate that they take time to answer questions, but I don't see a drag and drop solution as simpler. More examples of code to study is always useful, much in the way example problems in physics and mathematics help a student learn a concept that can be applied to more complicated problems. I just don't see a copy/paste solution as you'd like as a feasible solution, as you'd introduce so many errors into your data that you'd get overwhelmed trying to fix them (I'm speaking from experience too, I copied many 4e files into deathwatch to "re-purpose" them and it literally did not go well. It was honestly easier to start the data from scratch and build what I needed as I went along. There were less errors and issues that arose. As I stated before, it's easier to build a section of code, fix the issues that crop up immediately when reloading the compiler and then building more as you go. Now that I know what I'm doing with the construction process it is easier than I expected, but I had to learn to do it the hard way first.

You can't expect to teach someone to solve a quadratic polynomial with the quadratic formula if you don't teach them the formula and how to derive it.

[chiefweasel]

hey Ravenx, I think you are missing some of the items I am looking for, I am most likely not explaining it well. All I am really looking for is that the authoring kit to be more like the Editor. But with a few extra features, like beng able to replace text.
For instance, I could take the existing PF rules for HL and convert them to a Traveller system. The actual value of the ability is vaiable so that doesnt matter. I can input skills and create scripts that simulate the Traveller skills. Same for armor and weapons. I could jury-rig something, it wouldn't be pretty but it would be functional. But without writing a system from the ground up, I cant change CHR to Social. I should be able to make a small change like that.

On a side note, (This is playfully said, so please no nastiness intended). I disagree with your statement about the math formula. If this were true no discosvery would be possible. At some point the first person put it together with out a formula. The Babylonians were solving the quadratic problem in 2000BC before there was an equation.

[BoomerET]

Ya both need to stop writing novels, or at the very least put in a TL : DR line.

Pretty please
<grin>


BoomerET

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by chiefweasel

But without writing a system from the ground up, I cant change CHR to Social. I should be able to make a small change like that.

In my opinion, what you are describing is not a small change. Ability scores are linked to nearly everything else in Pathfinder (and most other game systems), so removing or adding one is a major change to the game. For example, in Pathfinder, the Dex ability's modifier is linked to the AC, but there are caveats to that - like the Max dex from the armor you're wearing, and being flat-footed.

Charisma is linked to a lot of other things, too - for example, the starting Fame if you're using the Fame rules from Ultimate Campaign is equal to your Charisma modifier.

There's also the display issues - what if your character sheets, summary panels, main tabs, etc. have been arranged, so that on most monitors, everything fits, and there are no odd gaps in the positioning of everything. Changing the number of ability scores could potentially throw all the positioning out of place, meaning that some pieces of information weren't displayed to the user.

[chiefweasel]

Oh, I agree. I'm sure its not a small thing to be done, in fact most likely even bigger then I imaging. I guess I looking for something like the changes made to the editor when it went from D20 ro PF. PF is a vast improvement over the D20 editor. So much more is automated instead of having to be scripted. It would just ne nice, and make coding easier if a few changes could be done.

For instance, you mentioned that CHR is tied to Fame rules. It would be nice to be able to brake the connection, or leave it in place simple not have it show up on the character sheet anyplace.

Sorry about thet BoomerET, is this short enough? lol

[BoomerET]

It's still more than two sentences, and you forgot the TL : DR

Other than that, perfect!



BoomerET