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gcpeart
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Old November 6th, 2012, 04:40 AM
I've purchased the licence for Ultimate Equipment, but I can't use items from it in the hl editor, I get the error that the item is not copyable/writable.

I've activated my licence after purchase to make the items available in the character builder, just they don't work in the editor. Is their some voodoo required?
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Mathias
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Old November 6th, 2012, 07:40 AM
You're not prevented from bringing it into the editor - just from saving what you brought into the editor.

That means you can create a new blank item, and copy everything from the original to that blank item, or you can study the scripts and use them as a template to build something else.
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Unseelie
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Old November 6th, 2012, 07:58 AM
Hypothetically speaking, how much more would we have to pay for the data files for it to be worth it for Lone Wolf to NOT lock things down. More and more as I world build, this actually gets in my way. Some sort of model for buying per GM would be marvelous.

Also, knowing that all of this material is SRD and therefore there's unlikely to be any encouragement from Paizo to lock things down adds to the frustration.

The fact that stuff is locked down is actually an encouragement to not use new Paizo material because it would require all of my players to ALSO buy the data files OR for me to do a lot of work to create a replace thing that will break if the data is ever changed.

Spells and gear (magic or otherwise) are the items that I am most likely to want to be able to grab from another book.

At this rate, my next game will be core books only just so I don't have to deal with all of the extra work just so my players can have camels as a mount, or carry around a Pathfinder Pouch.
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Mathias
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Old November 6th, 2012, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseelie View Post
it would require all of my players to ALSO buy the data files OR for me to do a lot of work to create a replace thing that will break if the data is ever changed.
And you've hit on the reason for this - piracy - if they're not locked down, someone could go through an entire package, quickly copying everything, and give it to others who hadn't purchased that package.
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Unseelie
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Old November 6th, 2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
And you've hit on the reason for this - piracy - if they're not locked down, someone could go through an entire package, quickly copying everything, and give it to others who hadn't purchased that package.
No, I get why. I'm pointing out how this piracy protection is seriously inconveniencing your paying customers as well. It's why I asked how much more someone would hypothetically need to pay to grant a 'campaign license.'

In addition to my copy of HL, plus extra machine licenses and all of the data files I bought five copies of Hero Lab for my players, which ended up being a waste of money because I still have to maintain all of their characters. This makes me less likely to a) use future Paizo PF products because it just compounds the issue, and b) makes it less likely that I will buy new data packages from Lone Wolf.

Assuming my group still wants to play Pathfinder when this Adventure Path is finished, my next game will be core only. No exceptions. Any exception whatsoever creates more work for me. I'd love to have some sort of an alternative.
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ShadowChemosh
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Old November 6th, 2012, 12:35 PM
I am not following how its causing you so much work. My games run with almost every book Paizo has produced and we have a good number of houserules running also. So far its not that big of a amount of work on my end to do this. So if you went into detail maybe their is an easier way to accomplish what your trying to do.

So why do you need so many replaces for items. Do you have that many houserules that are in affect for every animal or magic item?

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
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Unseelie
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Old November 6th, 2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
I am not following how its causing you so much work. My games run with almost every book Paizo has produced and we have a good number of houserules running also. So far its not that big of a amount of work on my end to do this. So if you went into detail maybe their is an easier way to accomplish what your trying to do.

So why do you need so many replaces for items. Do you have that many houserules that are in affect for every animal or magic item?
I'd like for my players to maintain their own character sheets. The Wizard and the Druids both have spells from UM, both Druids ride camels for their mounts, and several of them now have magic items from UE.

I could have, and probably should have said no or "only if you own the data files" but what it means is that anything from a secondary purchase that's locked down requires me to manually copy all of the data over. Maybe all of them don't have to be replace things, but its a bunch of work I would rather not do. As such, it is an active discouragement from allowing anything not from the core books, and if I'm not going to use it, then the second question becomes "Well then, why buy it?"

Again, I understand why items are locked. I work in the computer industry myself. So that I'm clear, I'm suggesting as a paying customer that I would prefer an alternative that did not inconvenience me as much as it inconveniences non-customers (i.e.. pirates)

Like I said before, I bought copies of HL for everyone in my game. Sadly, I did not think this through before I did so as that was a complete waste. The moment they have anything from another book, the choices become a) they buy the data files as well (and do you really blame a player for not wanting to spend $5 just so they can ride a camel), or b) I have to maintain their character for them.

Edit: I am using camel mounts as a quick example, as I do not have my data files in front of me. It may, in fact, be a bad example - I can't remember if the mount thing for camels is locked or not. Regardless, as I said, once something from another book ends up in their possession, it creates this frustration.

Last edited by Unseelie; November 6th, 2012 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Unseelie
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Old November 6th, 2012, 01:15 PM
Also, to be fair... I am seriously off topic now. If someone wants to move the rest of this discussion elsewhere, I certainly have no objections.
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Illydth
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Old November 6th, 2012, 01:44 PM
Unseelie: The complaint you seem to be identifying is "If all 5 of my characters want to use a spell from Unlimited Magic, the DM and the Character have to each spend the $5 to use the spell from Ulimited Magic"

I get the argument, if You buy the Unlimited Magic sourcebook from Paizo (or go to the SRD online) you've got all the information in Umlimited Magic, meaning for the $40 cost of the book, all 6 people in your campaign (5 players and the DM) all have access to that information. Your complaint is that with the Hero Labs method, all of you have to buy all of the data packages to be able to maintain your characters OR you the DM have to buy all of the packages and maintain your character's data.

The "Work" you are talking about, to my understanding, is that you are attempting to re-create everything that your players are using out of alternate source materials by hand from scratch on all 5 of the alternate copies of Hero Labs that each of your players are using. So if all 5 of your players want to use a given spell from Unlimited Magic, you're having to go into all 5 copies of Hero Labs your players are using and create that spell from scratch.

If I am correct in the above you are, in essence, complaining that you cannot easily copy the work of the Hero Labs development staff to allow you to easily provide your paid for source data on your friend's Hero Labs installations where that source data has not been paid for.

While I don't work for Hero Labs, I'd have to say that this is...just to make a guess...intentional since the payment model for Hero Labs is that each player using Hero Labs requires a paid for copy of each source data package sold by WolfLair. By re-creating that data on your friends copies you are, in essence, pirating that data and then complaining it's not being made easier by Wolf Lair for you to do so.

This isn't an intent to slam you in any way, I get your point with the SRD being out there and the fact that with the physical books, one single copy provides all of your players all of the source information you need usable by everyone.

That, however, simply isn't the payment model for Hero Labs and it's data files. Wolf Lair believes that the work they put into "labsifying" all of the released source data and rules from each released pathfinder (and other) resource provides an additional benefit to you over just reading and hand-implementing the rules out of a sourcebook or SRD.

And obviously it does...you are chosing to use Hero Lab over just creating paper character sheets...there must be a benefit / convenience to doing so.

If your comment is "Having to pay for all the data multiple times isn't worth the cost of using your product" I believe that WolfLair would say "That's your choice, we believe the convenience of having all of the rules applied for you and all the data at your fingertips to be worth the cost, but that's obviously your choice."

RE-creating all of that data machine to machine, installation to installation SHOULD be a pain in the *** simply because that's how they keep you from pirating their work.

I'm unsure what WolfLair's policy/EULA would say about this, keep in mind that you do get 2 installations of HeroLabs for free and 2 more alternate licenses for a discounted price...and all of those licenses share your expansion data purchases. While I"m not sure if it's legal for you to supply alternate license copies to each of your friends, as you said, you've purchased HeroLabs for each of your 5 players...perhaps your solution would be to obtain all 3 "Alternate" licenses for one of your master licenses (that would be 4) purchase all of the data packages you need, and then install the alternate licenses on your friend's copies. Obviously you'd need to do this twice (for the 5th player) but it's certainly a less expensive option than purchasing all of the data packages for all 5 of the machines.

Again, you'll want to talk with WolfLair/read the EULA to see if this breaks their licensing terms. Obviously if this is against licensing terms you shouldn't do this. As well, perhaps if you contact Wolf Lair and explain your situation (assuming you've already purchased 5 copies of HeroLabs/pathfinder at $30 each) they may be able to work something out with you...or not, depending upon their sales force.

One more suggestion if none of this works...why does each of your players need a copy of Hero Labs themselves? WOuld it be possible to take an hour break for character upgrade periodicaly, pass your copy of hero labs around on your laptop and let everyone upgrade their own characters? That way you still only need 1 set of licenses and, just like with the books, you are using that resource in a shared method. Print a set of character sheets for each player for table top play and let them make the changes they mark to their characters at the end of each session on the master Hero Labs copy.

--Illydth
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Unseelie
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Old November 6th, 2012, 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illydth View Post
Unseelie: The complaint you seem to be identifying is "If all 5 of my characters want to use a spell from Unlimited Magic, the DM and the Character have to each spend the $5 to use the spell from Ulimited Magic"

I get the argument, if You buy the Unlimited Magic sourcebook from Paizo (or go to the SRD online) you've got all the information in Umlimited Magic, meaning for the $40 cost of the book, all 6 people in your campaign (5 players and the DM) all have access to that information. Your complaint is that with the Hero Labs method, all of you have to buy all of the data packages to be able to maintain your characters OR you the DM have to buy all of the packages and maintain your character's data.

The "Work" you are talking about, to my understanding, is that you are attempting to re-create everything that your players are using out of alternate source materials by hand from scratch on all 5 of the alternate copies of Hero Labs that each of your players are using. So if all 5 of your players want to use a given spell from Unlimited Magic, you're having to go into all 5 copies of Hero Labs your players are using and create that spell from scratch.

If I am correct in the above you are, in essence, complaining that you cannot easily copy the work of the Hero Labs development staff to allow you to easily provide your paid for source data on your friend's Hero Labs installations where that source data has not been paid for.

While I don't work for Hero Labs, I'd have to say that this is...just to make a guess...intentional since the payment model for Hero Labs is that each player using Hero Labs requires a paid for copy of each source data package sold by WolfLair. By re-creating that data on your friends copies you are, in essence, pirating that data and then complaining it's not being made easier by Wolf Lair for you to do so.

This isn't an intent to slam you in any way, I get your point with the SRD being out there and the fact that with the physical books, one single copy provides all of your players all of the source information you need usable by everyone.

That, however, simply isn't the payment model for Hero Labs and it's data files. Wolf Lair believes that the work they put into "labsifying" all of the released source data and rules from each released pathfinder (and other) resource provides an additional benefit to you over just reading and hand-implementing the rules out of a sourcebook or SRD.

And obviously it does...you are chosing to use Hero Lab over just creating paper character sheets...there must be a benefit / convenience to doing so.

If your comment is "Having to pay for all the data multiple times isn't worth the cost of using your product" I believe that WolfLair would say "That's your choice, we believe the convenience of having all of the rules applied for you and all the data at your fingertips to be worth the cost, but that's obviously your choice."

RE-creating all of that data machine to machine, installation to installation SHOULD be a pain in the *** simply because that's how they keep you from pirating their work.

I'm unsure what WolfLair's policy/EULA would say about this, keep in mind that you do get 2 installations of HeroLabs for free and 2 more alternate licenses for a discounted price...and all of those licenses share your expansion data purchases. While I"m not sure if it's legal for you to supply alternate license copies to each of your friends, as you said, you've purchased HeroLabs for each of your 5 players...perhaps your solution would be to obtain all 3 "Alternate" licenses for one of your master licenses (that would be 4) purchase all of the data packages you need, and then install the alternate licenses on your friend's copies. Obviously you'd need to do this twice (for the 5th player) but it's certainly a less expensive option than purchasing all of the data packages for all 5 of the machines.

Again, you'll want to talk with WolfLair/read the EULA to see if this breaks their licensing terms. Obviously if this is against licensing terms you shouldn't do this. As well, perhaps if you contact Wolf Lair and explain your situation (assuming you've already purchased 5 copies of HeroLabs/pathfinder at $30 each) they may be able to work something out with you...or not, depending upon their sales force.

One more suggestion if none of this works...why does each of your players need a copy of Hero Labs themselves? WOuld it be possible to take an hour break for character upgrade periodicaly, pass your copy of hero labs around on your laptop and let everyone upgrade their own characters? That way you still only need 1 set of licenses and, just like with the books, you are using that resource in a shared method. Print a set of character sheets for each player for table top play and let them make the changes they mark to their characters at the end of each session on the master Hero Labs copy.

--Illydth
Like I said, in retrospect, the $150 I spent buying everyone a copy of Hero Lab was a waste of money. I'd have happily just given Lone Wolf that $150 so I didn't have to maintain everyone's character sheet, since that was what I was trying to do to begin with.

It's not that I mind the money. I don't want to force my players to spend the money when that data is much less useful to them than it is for the GM. I already have three licenses... I could consolidate that down to one for my own use, lose the convenience of having HL on both my laptop & desktop, and use the other two for players, but they sell a max of four as far as I know and I would need, umm, six. If I could do that, that would be an acceptable solution and you'll note that what I asked for was a license for my group (which this basically is).

Basically, I'm asking for some other way of protecting things, or some other payment model that doesn't penalize me as much as it does pirates. I've already given them several hundred dollars, so I'm clearly willing to give them more money to do less work. There has to be some other way...

This would be much easier if things stayed with the portfolio and didn't invalidate the moment a data file isn't available.

Last edited by Unseelie; November 6th, 2012 at 02:56 PM.
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