Gestalt - Community Package....

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Dianae

Found another issue, with Skill Points.

Level 1 Fighter/Magus
both classes are 2+Int and I have +1 hp for my Favored class Bonus
With a 10 or 11 Int I have 2 Skill Points - as expected
With a 12 or 13 Int I have 3 Skill Points - again expected
With a 14 or 15 Int I have 6 Skill Points - it added 3?
With a 16 or 17 Int I have 9 Skill Points - again +3 Skill Points for 1 point of Int?
With a 18 or 19 Int I have 12 Skill Points - Again, +3 Skill points.

If it had been +3 skill points every time the Int Modifier increased by one, I'd say that it's counting each class as giving skill points or something, but the math is right for +0 and +1 Modifier. You might have a Multiplication set in instead of an addition?

That is really really strange....

Oh I think I see what is going on. Its some background math HL is doing because of the three classes. So each "class" causes 1 extra skill point to appear. I guess I have to add some more logic to remove higher level int Ability scores.

Thanks for the bug report!

[stargazer_dragon]

Am a bit late to join but would like to add my 2 cents all the same, Perhaps the issue could be rooted out as Good,Poor saves rather then number.

Class A and class B make Class C Take all the good saves from Class A + class B the remainder follow poor save Progression.

Thus 1 lvl of Monk/fighter, and 1 lvl of Monk/Ninja would get good progression for all saves for both.

Perhaps better worded as

Class A + Class B = Class C
Fighter + Monk = Fighter Monk = fast save for all 3 saves

Class D + Class E = Class F
Monk + Ninja = Ninja Monk = Fast saves for all 3 saves

Gestalt wasn't really intended to be used to add two Gestalt sets of classes together, But if doing so I would treat each individual one as it's own Class, thus Monk/fighter, and monk Ninja counts as two classes and you don't get to have a lvl 2 monk and a lvl 1 ninja and a lvl 1 fighter instead you get a lvl 1 monk + 1 lvl 1 Monk + a lvl 1 fighter+ a LVL 1 ninja

Since Monk Powers don't stack with Monk Powers you reduce it to Monk,Fighter at LVL 1 Ninja at LVL 2 (though Ninja would use the better Saves of the Monk)

Should thus be +4 all saves (based on how other multiclassing works, And +1 BAB from the first lvl but +0 from the second again based on how other multiclassing works


__________
Edit: to Summarize, Every time you add a New Gestalt combination you are in fact adding a new class, Fighter/Ninja is not 1 lvl of fighter and 1 lvl of ninja it becomes a Gestalt Fighter/Monk. This is Different from the class of Gestalt Monk/Ninja and should in all ways be treated as such.

Fighter Ninja becomes Class A we will call Martial Arts Fighter that gives all the bonuses of Fighter + all the bonuses of Monk
Ninja/Monk Becomes Class B We will Call Martial Artists Ninja that as it's class powers gives all the benefits of Monk and Ninja

You then treat it as taking 1st lvl as Martial Art Fighter, then taking second level as Martial artist Ninja. Treat everything else as if it was any other multiclass option. The powers from each class that stack, stack, the ones that don't won't. Like Chi treat it the same as if two different classes granted you chi (pretty much everything tell you how to deal with this type of situation.

Since you show it in the lvl section as Gestalt 1 fighter 1 monk 1

this would become
Gestalt 1
fighter 1
Monk 1
Gestalt 1
Ninja 1
Monk 1

[stargazer_dragon]

Also, though it might just be a pipe dream but I would love to see a class similar to gestalt that let you mix features and such like the playtest classes did without having to use the editor constantly.

I mean like monk/ninja could be a cool themed mix, and alchemist gunslinger or alchemist/artificer ect ect

But gestalt is a bit to strong power balance wise, plus showing the classes separately clutters the screen a bit, perhaps show the fighter 1/ninja 1 ect in it's own tab, or even just show gestalt and have it grab the few pieces of overlapping data and calculate them then return everything into a single gestalt tab, thus it acts like a archetype simply modifying the base gestalt class by adding 2 class archetypes.

I mean I guess I could actually make a custom class and then custom make a huge list of archtypes for it to in effect do what I am after but I am not sure that's within my ability to code without a huge list of questions and mistakes.

[darthgator]

Originally Posted by stargazer_dragon

Perhaps better worded as

Class A + Class B = Class C
Fighter + Monk = Fighter Monk = fast save for all 3 saves

Class D + Class E = Class F
Monk + Ninja = Ninja Monk = Fast saves for all 3 saves

...

Should thus be +4 all saves (based on how other multiclassing works, And +1 BAB from the first lvl but +0 from the second again based on how other multiclassing works

But that's not how gestalt works, at all. You choose two classes, and pick the best abilities of each at each level. And you can't take the same class on "both sides" throughout your advancement. The easiest way I've found to do it is by separating your classes with a double slash (//). Once you take a level in a particular class, any time you take a level of that class again, you gain that class's next level abilities. So, in the original example, the character has 1 level each of fighter and ninja, and 2 levels of monk, you list your class like so: Fighter 1//Monk 1. Compare the abilities of each class, as follows:

Fighter 1 // Monk 1 = Ability
BAB +1 // +0 = +1
Fort +2 // +2 = +2
Ref +0 // +2 = +2
Will +0 // +2 = +2
HD d10 // d8 = d10 (10 hp since it's 1st level)
Skill 2+Int // 4+Int = 4+Int

At second level, you want to take a level of Monk and a level of Ninja, you do the same thing, then add the results to the above, like so:

Ninja 1 // Monk 2 = Ability
BAB +0 // +1 = +1
Fort +0 // +1 = +1
Ref +2 // +1 = +2
Will +0 // +1 = +1
HD d8 // d8 = d8
Skill 6+Int? // 4+Int = 6+Int? (Use the ninja's skill points)

You then add the totals for a character sheet that looks like this:

Fighter 1/Ninja 1//Monk 2
BAB +2
Fort +3
Ref +4
Will +3
HP 10+d8+(Con*2)
SP 10+(Int*2) [Max rank=2, all fighter, ninja, and monk skills are class skills]
All special abilities of a level 1 fighter, level 1 ninja, and level 2 monk, i.e. Fighter 1 bonus feat, Monk 1 bonus feat, Monk 2 bonus feat, Improved Unarmed Strike (free w/ Monk 1), proficient with all armor and simple and martial weapons, etc, etc.

If we follow your plan, everyone should take monk at every level, b/c they'd end up with base saves of +40 across the board at 20th level. Fighter/Monk, Ninja/Monk, Wizard/Monk, Paladin/Monk, Sorcerer/Monk, Rogue/Monk, Gunslinger/Monk, Barbarian/Monk, Ranger/Monk, Summoner/Monk, and Bard/Monk don't all combine to give you base saves of +22 because they all count as "level 1" of a multiclass build. That would make gestalt even more broken than it already is.

Let's say we add a third level and choose to add Ranger 1//Monk 3. We do the same thing as before, compare the benefits and take the best:

Ranger 1 // Monk 1 = Ability
BAB +1 // +1 = +1
Fort +2 // +0 = +2
Ref +2 // +0 = +2
Will +0 // +0 = +0
HP d10 // d8 = d10
SP 6+Int // 4+Int = 6+Int

Our character now looks like this:

Fighter 1/Ninja 1/Ranger 1//Monk 3
BAB: +3
Fort: +5
Ref: +6
Will: +3
HP: 10+d10+d8+(Con*3)
SP: 16+(Int*3)
You've also picked up all of the level 1 abilities for a Fighter, Ninja, and ranger, and all of a Monk's 1-3rd level abilities.

[Dianae]

What I think stargazer_dragon was saying was that since Monk has Good Saves all around, that by lvl20, if we had Monk for 20 of those levels, the saves would be +12, +12, +12, regardless of Poor Save adjustments along the way, though possibly having the +1(or +2) bonus for multi-classing a new class in at a given level.

That said, your way of calculating things, darthgator, is how I had always calculated them (baring 3.5 and pathfinder rules differences) back in 3.5

[stargazer_dragon]

Not fully what I meant, however after reading and refreshing myself on gestalt (has been a while since I used it) I realize that what I ment wasn't correct ether.

Gestalt is actually not considered multi-classing. Since rules of gestalt state that you choose two classes each level a level 2 gestalt could be 1 theif and 2 monk and 1 ninja, but since he isn't multiclassing the saves would be based off of the better progression, meaning you would gain Monk saves.

If you took monk, rouge at first then wizard sorce at second your saves would gain the bonus from fast progression at lvl 1 and wizard/sorce progression at lvl 2.

Seams like this could be pretty hard to program though


Perhaps using the optional fraction rules would be a lot better.

"""The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses
in the Player’s Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but
those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class
characters, this rounding isn’t signifi cant, but for multiclass characters,
this rounding often results in reduced base attack and
base save bonuses.
For example, a 1st-level rogue/1st-level wizard has a base
attack bonus (BAB) of +0 from each class, resulting in a total
BAB of +0. But that’s only due to the rounding of each fractional
value down to 0 before adding them together—the character
actually has BAB +3/4 from her rogue level and BAB +1/2 from
her wizard level. If the rounding was done after adding together
the fractional values, rather than before, the character would
have BAB +1 (rounded down from 1-1/4).""""

[ShadowChemosh]

Disclaimer: If this post sounds like I am attacking anyone "I am not". I am annoyed at not getting this concept. So my writing may "show" that but its not at anyone on these boards. Its at the concept that is really not making me happy!

I have to start with I am still confused. Sorry but I am not fully getting this which means trying to program it is not possible. I need to be able to do the math by hand before I can script it right.

Originally Posted by darthgator

Ninja 1 // Monk 2 = Ability
BAB +0 // +1 = +1
Fort +0 // +1 = +1
Ref +2 // +1 = +2
Will +0 // +1 = +1
HD d8 // d8 = d8
Skill 6+Int? // 4+Int = 6+Int? (Use the ninja's skill points)

At this point right here we don't take the current level 2 monk values. Your taking the delta meaning you end up with lower values than a normal multiclass character. I don't see "why" that is...

We are less than a normal Monk 2 Rogue 1:
Fort +3
Ref +5
Will +3

Originally Posted by darthgator

Fighter 1/Ninja 1//Monk 2
BAB +2
Fort +3
Ref +4
Will +3

We take the "better value" but for saves your saying we first have to "calculate" the value and then take the delta of it. Why? I still can't find a real answer anywhere I look and this sort of sounds like its your groups houserule (not an insult here). That you found this to work the best and it maybe it does.

Also based on just here alone on these boards I have seen a half-dozen different answers to the question. Seems like their is no real clear cut answer. I see many groups asking to use fractional values as its easier (stargazer mentions that above).

For those that use gestalt rules is this "delta" saves rules really the correct method? Is this what everyone who plans to use this addon want?

[stargazer_dragon]

ok by book it say

""Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose
the better progression from the two classes. For example, a
1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw
bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good
Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save
from the wizard class.""

[Dianae]

Disclaimer accepted and seconded, I am attempting to be as rational on this matter as I can as well. It is a frustration that does seem to be spreading. The following, unless quoted is my own intuition/thoughts, after attempting to sift through the ideas I have seen, not any official rulings, and there may be some variants out there that I have missed.

1. I think one point of confusion between us(all inclusive here, not holding myself above anyone else) is the level based progression.
   • The Monk example I gave at first is a 2nd level character, whose Adjusted CL is roughly 3.
   • He is stronger than a Monk 2 or a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 by themselves due to flexibility and stronger saves, but weaker than a Monk and a Fighter/Rogue working together due to action economy.
   • He is weaker than a Monk 2/Fighter 1/Rogue 1, due to HD, BAB, and Skills, Access to Feats, etc.
2. The second point of confusion about Gestalt Characters comes from the concept of taking multiple classes.
   • If a Gestalt Character is Dual Classed(with the possibility of entering a Prestige Class)
   • The "Munchkin" Method(no offense meant) is to dip when you multiclass. as I did with Mr. Monk.

Dual Class Gestalt is the easiest to calculate and adjudicate. SC's addon already handles most of that beautifully(and hopefully all, once out of beta)

With all of the various rules that came out in Unearthed Arcana, WotC did not have a lot of space to lay down a lot exposition on all of the rules, so the base rules as given were pretty thin and open to interpretation. Many of the rules in this book did make it into Pathfinder (traits, drawbacks, bloodlines, variant classes(archtypes)) in one way, shape, form, or fashion.

Many number crunchers looked at Gestalt and wondered what would happen if the gestalt character dipped a level into X or Y. The points that have any reference on this idea are as follows :

Originally Posted by UA-pg72

To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. (You can also choose any of the variant classes, though you can’t combine two versions of the same class.)

Originally Posted by UA-pg73

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.

Originally Posted by UA-pg73

Because the player of a gestalt character chooses two classes at every level, the possibilities for gestalt characters are almost limitless.

The only listed limitations were the aforementioned not combining two variants of the same class and :

• Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
• Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
• A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

To be honest, I think the biggest problem with getting this coded, is that the leveling system was explained in less than one page of text, about 1 1/3 columns of text to be precise.

[stargazer_dragon]

Edit: reworded in later post to be more clear