Ability score adjustments

[Dark Lord Galen]

Still wish (noted by many elsewhere) that herolab would display somewhere how it determines various totals for AC, HP, BAB etc.... but since it doesn't (for now anyway) we have to be a bit clarvoyant.
My point to detail this latest rendition is.......
Ability Adjustment bonuses....

I have a PC that leveled up (7th to 8th) and increased his constitution by +1 changing his adjustment overall from a +2 per HD to +3.... I get that it is not retroactive, and the +3 is applicable forward, but WHY does Hero Lab display +3 beside all of the Hit Die Boxes all the way back to level 1??? It seems to total the value correctly. This is confusing.

[Rabulias]

Con bonuses do apply retroactively. The only ability score increase that does not apply is additional skill points from Intelligence. See 3.5 Player's Handbook, p.10.

[Dark Lord Galen]

Then Herolab has it totally incorrect in the mathematics.
For Example
If I have a PC 7th lvl with
St-17
Dex-14
Con-15
Int-14
Wis-11
Cha-11
his respective HP are (as displayed on HL Basics tab)
1 Fighter 10 +2
2 Fighter 3+2
3 Fighter 4+2
4 Fighter 4+2
5 Fighter 4+2
6 Wizard 3+2
7 Wizard 4+2
Giving him a Base HP Total of 32 with a mod based on Con of +14 =46 total HP
With the Same PC Leveling up and applying a +1 to con at 8th LVL
St-17
Dex-14
Con-16 (+1 added here)
Int-14
Wis-11
Cha-11
his respective HP become displayed as
1 Fighter 10 +3
2 Fighter 3+3
3 Fighter 4+3
4 Fighter 4+3
5 Fighter 4+3
6 Wizard 3+3
7 Wizard 4+3
8 Fighter 10+3
Giving him a Base HP Total of 42 with a mod on Con of +24 (+3*8 lvl as displayed) would =66 total HP yet the Hit Points Total should be (based on the reference of PHB 3.5e p10)
1 Fighter 10 +2
2 Fighter 3+2
3 Fighter 4+2
4 Fighter 4+2
5 Fighter 4+2
6 Wizard 3+2
7 Wizard 4+2
8 Fighter 10+3

Total Should be displayed as Hit Points: 59/59
or put another way 46 (the 7th LVL Value) + 10 (HP rolled at 8th) +3 (New Constitution Mod)= 59

Further you are incorrect in your reading of p 10 (Assume PHB3.5e) as intellegence is the example, but it clearly states "She does NOT RETROACTIVELY get additional points for her previous levels." the KEY piece is the paragraph starting with FOR EXAMPLE. By definition "for example " would mean this is one of many examples.
This is further discussed on WOC site and by Skip Williams elsewhere. (from 3.0 thru 5Next, though the latter is concidering a totally different application (but thats another story))

And while not directly related, (since 3.5 doesn't but 3.0 does) in DMG3.0 (and only bring this because 3.0 to 3.5 would suggest the .5 equates an addendum to the original submission) but must say, I think WOC was in error to call the publication a .5 to begin with,,,, too much was changed. IMO
According to page 145, " level advancement sequence at page 145 states clearly that assigning skill points is prior to increase of ability scores." Since 3.5 (to my knowledge) doesn't define the order of application. I would surmise the order thusly, Exp award, Level Up, class increase selected, skills assigned, feats assigned, lastly attribute increases assigned. As none (skills, feats, nor attributes) are retroactive, the +3 in this case is ONLY applicable to the newest level applied.


For all those metagamers out there I can see this being a nice addition.... but there is no precedence for it.

*Edit* from original post , I meant to sasy it DOESN'T seem to total correctly

[Sendric]

Rabulias is correct. Hit points are gained retroactively upon increasing your Constitution. The PHB states the following in regards to this: "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly."

Therefore, your total hit points should look thusly (after gaining a level and increasing CON):

1 Fighter 10+3
2 Fighter 3+3
3 Fighter 4+3
4 Fighter 4+3
5 Fighter 4+3
6 Wizard 3+3
7 Wizard 4+3
8 Fighter 10+3

This totals to 66. If HL doesn't show that you have 66 HP then there is a problem. Otherwise, it is computing it correctly. If you want to house rule that hit points are not gained retroactively, then you can use an adjustment to reduce your HPs by the appropriate amount (in this case 7).

As for other things getting added retroactively, this has been a hotly debated topic throughout the RPG world. For Pathfinder, Paizo has ruled that everything gets added retroactively, and this includes skill points and even starting languages. Whether or not you wish to apply this to 3.5 is up to you, though I do think it makes things easier. I would also suggest that rules from 3.0 are largely irrelevant in this case, because HL is using 3.5 rules. My understanding of the rules of 3.5 is that skill points are also gained retroactively after increasing Intelligence.

[Rabulias]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen

Further you are incorrect in your reading of p 10 (Assume PHB3.5e) as intellegence is the example, but it clearly states "She does NOT RETROACTIVELY get additional points for her previous levels." the KEY piece is the paragraph starting with FOR EXAMPLE. By definition "for example " would mean this is one of many examples.

That example is specifically about Intelligence and skill points. Read that paragraph on page 10 in its entirety to get a better sense of the context, especially the first two lines. I will admit that paragraph could be more precise.

So I have found a better reference for you! See PHB 3.5e p.9, the last paragraph under Constitution, which says:

Originally Posted by Player's Handbook 3.5

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

[Dark Lord Galen]

@ Rabulias, 3.5e p9 However gents there is NOTHING saying this applies retroactively to all ability scores.
Further 3.5e p10 does NOT say intelligence ONLY. it gives an EXAMPLE and EXAMPLE means there are more situations that this is applicable to (meaning one of many) The rule set you are applying is correct for pathefinder and for 4e for 3.5 I did find on PHB3.5e p58 where this is retroactive for hitpoints, however there is NOTHING to support all abilities and subsequent skill points, languages etc being retroactive . IN FACT, 3.5ep10 (that all are collectively using for a reference (without reading evidentally) plainly states in the example that "she does not retroactively get additional points for her previous levels (that is, skill points she would have gained if she had had an Intelligence score of 16 at 1st level"
SORRY guys it can't be any plainer than that.
I agree that 4e, pathfinder do this, and from a programing simplicity I can also see it,
there are several homebrews posted on the Open GL
http://dandwiki.com/wiki/Retroactive_Skill_Points_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)
that go to the trouble to change it. If they went to the trouble of making a hombrew variant to change it, to me this suggests that the defacto is no.

Now from simplicity of programing ... ok... just can't find anything t hat supports this logic with in 3.5

[Aaron]

Galen, as I understand it, Intelligence increase does not grant retroactive skill points/languages (and HL therefore does not grant retroactive skill points). I think everyone is in agreement on this point, regardless of some people house ruling it otherwise.

What I believe other people are pointing out is that Con increases do grant retroactive Hp (unlike Int increases). You seem to be carrying the example of Int and incorrectly applying it to Con as well. That's fine as a house rule, but I do not believe that is the core rules "official" interpretation, so it isn't something HL should be changed to accomodate.

[Dark Lord Galen]

Aaron, no I concede that the application HL does for HP is correct, (see last listing above referencing 3.5ePHB p 58) (which is what I was asking for to begin with)
My contention is that no one's supporting "facts" conveyed this. Nor do they support the contension that the evidence others provided . It doesn't support retroactive skills, language accumalation, etc. I question where HL gets applying these when, as defined on pages 9, 10 and elswhere, that it plainly states they (skills, languages, etc) are not retroactive. And basing on a culmination between p9,10 AND 58 HP is the exception not the rule. Applying retroactive results to other abilities (intellegence included) is not retroactive as defined in the example on page 10. Page 58 provides the only exclusion to this as far as I can find. and only to HP.

[Rabulias]

We seem to be in agreement that Con adjustments are retroactively applied to hit points and bonus skill points and languages from Int are not applied retroactively.

What other bonuses from ability scores are you concerned about applying retroactively?