Mithral Shirt vs. Mithral Chain Shirt

Yaro · November 9th, 2010, 12:07 AM

Under "Armor" when I select "New magic, custom or masterwork armor..." I get a menu that includes "Mithral Shirt". It says it's an "extremely light chain shirt" that costs 1100 gp and weighs 10 lbs. When I add it I see that I get +4 to my AC and that it has a max. dex bonus of +6, no armor check penalty and 10% arcane failure.

However, if I select "Custom / Magic armor" and then chose a Mithral Chain Shirt, I get everything identical except that it says "Mithral Chain Shirt" and weighs 12.5 lbs.

My guess is that the Mithral Shirt in the main menu is supposed to weigh 12.5 lbs.

Does this sound right?

Mathias · November 9th, 2010, 08:14 AM

Core Rulebook pg. 466: The Mithral Shirt is listed as weighing 10 lbs.

Core Rulebook pg. 155: Items made of the Mithral material are half their normal weight

Core Rulebook pg. 151: The weight of a chain shirt is normally 25 lbs.

I agree with you that they ought to be the same weight, but the items listed in the specific armors aren't always the same as those built using materials (see Elven Chain vs. Mithral Chain mail and the proficiencies required for each).

Yaro · November 9th, 2010, 11:58 AM

Mathias - Thanks for pointing that out. That is very interesting what you found.

I decided to put up a post at http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...hainShirtWeigh to get some feedback and it seems pretty clear that the 'specific' weight of the Mithral Chain Shirt overrides the general rule, which is what you said.

Thank you for the help with this one and I hope you don't mind me pointing out things like this.

Yaro · November 24th, 2010, 02:01 PM

Mathias - I purchased the Mithral Shirt (10 lbs), however, I'm unable to upgrade the item to +1 in Hero Lab. The only way to get a +1 item is to take a chain shirt, make it Mithral and then add the +1. This is fine, but the item now weighs 12.5 lbs.

My thought is that when someone take a chain shirt and makes it Mithral you should override the 1/2 weight calculation and just make it 10 lbs.

2.5 extra lbs is a very minor deal, but do you have any other idea how to work around this? Thanks!

Nikmal · November 26th, 2010, 05:08 PM

Speaking of Mithral Shirt, Dwarven Plate, and the like. Why is it there is no way to advance them with magical enhancements? I would think that there would be without having to go in to the editor and fiddle with the settings to do so?

Can this be included in an update? Things like Elven Chain already have this enhanced but not the mundane armor items like the ones mentioned above and the Darkwood Shield and Darkwood Buckler (while not as important as the others mentioned above)

Thanks!

Maidhc O Casain · November 27th, 2010, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikmal

Speaking of Mithral Shirt, Dwarven Plate, and the like. Why is it there is no way to advance them with magical enhancements? I would think that there would be without having to go in to the editor and fiddle with the settings to do so?

Can this be included in an update? Things like Elven Chain already have this enhanced but not the mundane armor items like the ones mentioned above and the Darkwood Shield and Darkwood Buckler (while not as important as the others mentioned above)

Thanks!

I second this. Can't existing magic items be further enhanced per RAW? At least up to the maximum +10 total bonus value?

Mathias · November 30th, 2010, 10:00 AM

The magic items in the specific weapons & armor sections are, in my opinion, specific items, constructed as-is, and not available for further modification through the bonuses/special abilities rules that are separate sections in the armor and weapon rules. Otherwise, the "of luck" ability would have been given an equivalent bonus and be in with the rest of the armor abilities, or Elven chain would be identical to a suit of chain mail with the mithral material applied.

In Hero Lab, if you want to create +3 elven chain, you could either make a copy of the existing elven chain item, and then set the copy to be +3 and then set the price for it, or you could duplicate the Mithral material to create an "Elven Mithral" material that applies the differences between elven chain and mithral chainmail.

Yaro · November 30th, 2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathias

The magic items in the specific weapons & armor sections are, in my opinion, specific items, constructed as-is, and not available for further modification through the bonuses/special abilities rules that are separate sections in the armor and weapon rules. Otherwise, the "of luck" ability would have been given an equivalent bonus and be in with the rest of the armor abilities, or Elven chain would be identical to a suit of chain mail with the mithral material applied.

Basically you're saying that a Mithral Shirt is 10 lbs because it's a "special" item. However, a chain shirt that you then make Mithral is going to be 12.5 lbs, so any magical Mithral chain shirts are going to have to be 12.5 lbs. It a bit strange, but I guess I can see that either way. Thank you for the reply!

risner · November 30th, 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaro

Basically you're saying that a Mithral Shirt is 10 lbs because it's a "special" item. However, a chain shirt that you then make Mithral is going to be 12.5 lbs, so any magical Mithral chain shirts are going to have to be 12.5 lbs. It a bit strange, but I guess I can see that either way. Thank you for the reply!

No, I think he was talking about the magical items (like celestial armor)

The non-magical items can be magically enhanced (like 10lb mithral chain)

Yaro · 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risner

No, I think he was talking about the magical items (like celestial armor)

The non-magical items can be magically enhanced (like 10lb mithral chain)

Then I think we might have a misunderstanding. To reiterate, Core Rulebook pg. 466 has the Mithral Shirt (non-magical) listed as weighing 10 lbs. Core Rulebook pg. 151 has the weight of a chain shirt (non-magical) listed as 25 lbs. Core Rulebook pg. 155 says that items made of the Mithral material are half their normal weight, which would make a Mithral Chain Shirt 12.5 lbs.

So is a Mithral Chain Shirt 10 lbs or 12.5 lbs?

Mathias pointed out, and I confirmed on the Paizo forum, that the specific weight (10 lbs.) overrides the general rule regarding Mithral items. This makes sense.

So now how much does a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt weigh?

I think you should, as laid out by the Pathfinder Society, upgrade the 10 lb Mithral Shirt to +1, which would mean that it's still 10 lbs. You cannot, however, do this with Hero Lab. You can, however, take a chain shirt, make it Mithral and then add +1, although it'll then be 12.5 lbs. I think what Mathias is saying is that you can't upgrade a 10 lbs Mithral Shirt to +1.

Does this make sense? What do you think?