Cyberlimb armor?

[Canis]

Oh I agree, and am also of the opinion that cyberlimb armour is treated like helmets/shields etc.

[squeenabob]

Mathias,

You assert that: “There's nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does apply to non-called damage tests.” This is correct. However the alternate position, that there is nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does not apply to non-called damage tests. There is only one piece of armor that only functions on called damage tests, the Protective Covers (for eyeware). The Protective Covers state (on SR4A 340)

“Protective Covers: These can protect both cyber and normal eyes,
and confer both Ballistic and Impact armor bonuses of +2 to the eye
area. Available in transparent or one-way reflective versions.”

However, Cyberlimb armor states on SR4A 344, “Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.” This wording is consistent with Orthoskin (SR4A 346), Dermal Plating (SR4A 342), and Bone Lacing (341) which say

“Orthoskin adds its rating to the character’s Ballistic and Impact ratings (cumulative with worn armor).”

“Dermal plating confers a bonus to both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.”

“Bone Lacing: The cellular structure of the user’s bones is aug-
mented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and metals to im-
prove the bones’ integrity and tensile strength, but the augmentation
also adds extra weight. Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to
the Body attribute for damage resistance tests. Aluminum bone lacing
confers a +2 Body bonus for damage resistance tests and a +1 Impact
armor bonus (cumulative with worn armor). Titanium bone lacing
confers bonuses of +3 to Body for damage resistance tests and +1 to
both Ballistic and Impact armor. Characters with bone lacing also in-
flict Physical damage with their unarmed blows. Bone Lacing is incom-
patible with Bone Density Augmentation bioware.”

To summarize, my argument is that you established an arbitrary rule (that the Core Rulebook didn’t say X so clearly it works like Y”) when instead the Core Rulebook treated cyberlimb armor with the same language as Orthoskin, Dermal Plating, and Bone Lacing. The Core Rulebook could have mentioned that cyberlimb armor only works on a specific area like Protective Covers, but it does not. Instead, Cyberlimb armor is treated the same as Orthoskin, Dermal Plating, and Bone Lacing which Hero Labs treats differently.

[_Pax_]

Originally Posted by Mathias

There's nothing in the Core Rulebook that suggests cyberlimb armor does apply to non-called damage tests.

Except, of course, for the little problem that called shots to specific parts of a target, to go against specific levels of armor, do not exist in the rules at all.

Seriously:

(SR4A p161, emphasis mine)
CALLED SHOTS
Characters may “call shots” in an attempt to increase the damage their
weapons will do. Calling a shot means that the character is aiming at
a vulnerable portion of a target, such as a person’s head, the tires or
windows of a vehicle, and so on. Thee gamemaster decides if such a
vulnerable spot is accessible.

A character can only make a called shot with weapons that are
in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes, as well as melee
weapons. A character can aim (see Take Aim, p.148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.
When a shot is called, and pending the gamemaster’s agreement,
the player character has the choice to:

• Target an area not protected by armor. Thee attacking character receives
a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better
armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor
is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

[...]

A called shot to bypass armor bypasses ALL armor. All of it. No exceptions. So, your "for called shots only" armor idea, would result in ... no armor. They don't even get the armor from things like Ceramic Bone Lacing, or Orthoskin. They get 0/0 armor, period.

[Mathias]

I apologize, but can we revisit this in a few weeks, please? I'm currently ripping my hair out over how I can allow you to spend karma to add a program option to a complex form (there are some aggravating limitations in how the advancements actually function within Hero Lab), and even after I finish that, I only have a few more weeks to finish all of Runner's Companion and Unwired. I'm afraid I don't currently have the time to study this issue any further.

[Canis]

Originally Posted by _Pax_

A called shot to bypass armor bypasses ALL armor. All of it. No exceptions. So, your "for called shots only" armor idea, would result in ... no armor. They don't even get the armor from things like Ceramic Bone Lacing, or Orthoskin. They get 0/0 armor, period.

No they get the armour in the location shot at, minus the modifier you apply - a temporary AP increase - due to called shot. Sure you can go for -10 if you'd like, but that shot is gonna be pretty tough (even my prime runner gunslinger adept would find that a challenge). You are targeting an area of armour of the level of your choosing based on the dice pool modifier you choose to inflict upon yourself for the called shot. If that means you hit the arm, then you hit the arm. Called shots aren't all or nothing!!

It would appear that there is mounting evidence for cyberlimb armour to be treated as cumulative much like form fitting armour, helmets and other implant armour. This makes sense, though it does make even higher armour values possibe but capacity issues will balance that out (I hope).

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

[ahglock]

Originally Posted by Canis

No they get the armour in the location shot at, minus the modifier you apply - a temporary AP increase - due to called shot. Sure you can go for -10 if you'd like, but that shot is gonna be pretty tough (even my prime runner gunslinger adept would find that a challenge). You are targeting an area of armour of the level of your choosing based on the dice pool modifier you choose to inflict upon yourself for the called shot. If that means you hit the arm, then you hit the arm. Called shots aren't all or nothing!!

It would appear that there is mounting evidence for cyberlimb armour to be treated as cumulative much like form fitting armour, helmets and other implant armour. This makes sense, though it does make even higher armour values possibe but capacity issues will balance that out (I hope).

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

True but it is a abstract rule based on armor value and not on location. Shooting the guy in the leg when wearing an armored jacket is harder than shooting someone in the eye when wearing a full suit form fitting.

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by Canis

It'd be nice if CGL ruled, but having looked over some CGL generated NPC's I'm fairly sure this is the case.

After three years of programming character generators based on five different publishers, I've stopped believing that NPCs built by the publisher are worth anything as evidence in a rules argument - they all very often fail to follow their own rules when writing NPCs (and pregens).

[Canis]

Originally Posted by Mathias

After three years of programming character generators based on five different publishers, I've stopped believing that NPCs built by the publisher are worth anything as evidence in a rules argument - they all very often fail to follow their own rules when writing NPCs (and pregens).

While I agree with you in the main, as one of CGL's proof readers I know there aforementioned NPC's are accurate.

[_Pax_]

Honestly, the simplest interim solution is: make it an Option, in the list of optional rules. Let individual players / GMs make their own rulings at home.

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by _Pax_

Honestly, the simplest interim solution is: make it an Option, in the list of optional rules. Let individual players / GMs make their own rulings at home.

As an interim solution, on the In-Play Adjustments table on the Adjust tab, you can use the Armor - Ballistic and Armor - Impact adjustments to modify the values on one of your other armor pieces until the totals are correct.