(M&M 2e) Permanent Powers

[Korwin]

I want to model an permanent memory change power in MM2.
I am pretty shure in the past I could do that,
first upgrade the power with extras to continious then use the flaw to change it into permanent.
Or alternativly use the flaw and hero lab itself would count how much it would cost you to upgrade it into an continious power then downgrade it.

Was that an pipe dream, or was that patched out? Or is it still possible, but I need to take another road?

[Duggan]

There is no such thing as a Permanent attack power. The best you can do is Continuous, which will maintain itself until you cease powering it or it is countered.

Page 70 - Core Book

A Continuous Lasting power does not allow new saves against it at all; it lasts until the power’s effect is countered or reversed in some way, even if you switch to an Alternate Power (see page 108).

While technically an optional supplement, Ultimate Power further suggests adding an "escape clause" to Transformations:
Page 92 - Ultimate Power

Continuous transformations last until you choose to reverse them (or they are nullified). The GM can require that a Continuous Transform effect have some other reasonable way of undoing it, from a kiss from royalty to soaking in water, depending on the effect’s descriptors.

[Korwin]

Originally Posted by Duggan

There is no such thing as a Permanent attack power. The best you can do is Continuous, which will maintain itself until you cease powering it or it is countered.

I can see the argument for my example, but to take another example.
Permanent transformation from dirt to castle is not possible, by the book?

If the power user dies, all his build castles will get turned back into dirt?

Edit: It's for an npc, so I could take liberties. But if there is an RAW method to do what I want to do...
I suppose Independend and slow fade would be my best bet?

Edit2: Disclaimer: Players will have it easy to be immune against it.

[Duggan]

That's one way to look at it, although on the flip side, how likely is that to last longer than the death of the person who used the power?

In terms of inanimate objects (other than Devices), they can't make saves, so transformations are always effective and always permanent. For animate objects, upon death of the wizard, they may not turn back to flesh, but they continue to make saves. Or they don't as the plot requires.

[Korwin]

Originally Posted by Duggan

That's one way to look at it, although on the flip side, how likely is that to last longer than the death of the person who used the power?

The slow fade? Quite a while, I imagine.

In terms of inanimate objects (other than Devices), they can't make saves, so transformations are always effective and always permanent. For animate objects, upon death of the wizard, they may not turn back to flesh, but they continue to make saves. Or they don't as the plot requires.

As I understand it, if the power is not permanent but 'only' continuos. Then objects turn back if the power user dies. No save required.
And the Power User can always turn of their power, if they want to do an reset and begin from anew.

Thats really important if you deleted the word document by mistake and there is no undo button

[Duggan]

Ah, but Transform is also "Lasting", as per page 70.

A Lasting duration denotes a power with a lasting effect the target must recover from by making additional saving throws, with a cumulative +1 bonus per previous save. A successful save ends the power’s effect. An Instant Lasting power allows a new saving throw each round on the initiative count when the effect occurred. A Concentration Lasting power allows a new save for each interval on the Time and Value Progression Table (see below) that passes, starting one minute after the power takes effect. A Sustained Lasting power allows new saves at the same intervals, except it requires only a free action to maintain, and if you concentrate during a time interval (taking a standard action each round), the subject does not gain the cumulative +1 save bonus for that interval. If you stop maintaining a Sustained Lasting power, its effects continue until the target successfully saves to shake off the power’s effects. A Continuous Lasting power does not allow new saves against it at all; it lasts until the power’s effect is countered or reversed in some way, even if you switch to an Alternate Power (see page 108).

Since it doesn't instantly switch off with Instant, after the user stops "maintaining" it, I'd argue that the death of the person who did Continuous doesn't stop it either.

[Korwin]

Hmm, so rules wise there is an difference between Transform (mental) and Transform.

So the workaround is only needed for Transform (mental).
(Or if you want no "undo button" for the Power User.)

Thanks, BTW!

[Duggan]

I'm pretty sure that both are Lasting. But yes, after the user stops maintaining the power, non-objects get to start making saves.

[Korwin]

Originally Posted by Duggan

I'm pretty sure that both are Lasting.

According to HeroLab Transform (Mental) is not (--> too lazy to search my books )

But yes, after the user stops maintaining the power, non-objects get to start making saves.

Unless it's continuos and lasting...

[Duggan]

Ah. Yeah, that would be a typo. I can send it to them to fix, but they haven't implemented a 2E fix in a long time.

And a Continuous Lasting does allow for saves after the power isn't maintained. It's only while you maintain it that there's no saves.