Need core races for NPCs
 

I'm not seeing any of the core races in the race list for NPC's. We do need NPCs besides monsters...

Moved this to it's own thread.

See THIS thread for details. But a NPC is not built like a PC and you do not start with "race" to build a NPC monster. Regardless if you are trying to build a human solider you don't start with Human you start with type Humanoid and go from their.

But if you're listing every other monster for people to just open up and use, the core races should be there too.

If you know the page number in the Alien Archive to give LW this info please do. As no such info exists are you expecting LW to invent Paizo rules? :confused:

To add please don't provide the page numbers in the Core rule book for the human race. That is for a PC and can not be used to create/craft a NPC. :)

NPCs and Monsters in Starfinder use 100% of their own rules. Unless you want a really lopsided combat a DM can not craft a human solider using PC rules and throw it at the PCs. The combat will go on forever and be badly balanced.

With the above being the case and Alien Archive having no rules for "human" how can LW provide those in the tool?

I don't think we're on the same page. Right now, I do this:
Create new, select NPC as the type. Confirm add character.
Open it, go to character, go to race. I can pick a void hag, an urog, or any of the AA things, but I can't pick a human or a vesk. I can then modify that urog into the monster I want, but the vesk I'd have to start from scratch.

The void hag race in that list isn't just a blank void hag NPC with only a race - it's the CR 10 void hag on pg. 120 of Alien Archive, with all of the ability scores, skills, other abilities, spell-like abilities, etc. all pre-set with the same choices made in Alien Archive (although it can be customized from there).

The very first race in the list is a blank NPC that can be created as any race you want by adding the correct creature type and subtype.

100% correct. Urog is a "pre-built" monster. A Void Hag is a 'pre-built' monster. Human or Vesk have no 'pre-built' monster stats. A pre-built monster stat (even in HLO) includes all the decisions that Paizo already made when building it (Ability scores, selection of master skills, if the monster was a combat or skill expert). Its not actually a blank "race" like Pathfinder has or would be built in HLC for Pathfinder where you start with race and select skills and ability scores.

From the other thread. Here is the statblock of the human gang members from the first AP Dead Suns:
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Absalom Station Gang Member CR 1/2
XP 200
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Perception +10
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Defense HP 13
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EAC 10; KAC 12
Fort +2; Ref +4; Will +0
--------------------
Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee club +2 (1d6-3 B)
Ranged azimuth laser pistol +6 (1d4 F; critical burn 1d4)
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Statistics
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Str +2; Dex +3; Con +1; Int -1; Wis +0; Cha -1
Skills Bluff +5, Intimidate +9, Stealth +5
Gear flight suit stationwear, azimuth laser pistol with 1 battery (20 charges), club, credstick (worth 150 cr), credstick (worth 150 cr)

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
------------------------------------------------

Its stats are in line with the Paizo adventure and built using HLO. But no where did I start with "human" because no such monster exists.

If you are making a vesk adversary you follow the rules of the AA and start with Humanoid as type and Vesk as the subtype. Then fill in the rest of the details. But a Vesk NPC does NOT get the ability score modifiers or many other features of the Vesk PC race.

I am not sure how else to describe this..... :(

This is largely where I ran into issues in the understanding of player races as NPCs, because the new player races in AA were presented as a traditional race instead of as a humanoid that you then selected as a subtype selection. The consistency for this isn't clear and it is confusing because of this.

I understand that LW can't/shouldn't make up rules, but this is where there should be some communication back with Paizo to better explain how this should work, especially when you see AA races also as options. Personally, I think the AA races should be base AA rules for Monster use, with the ability to follow the custom NPC rules using the player races in AA following the same rule building design from the Core book. That would keep consistency and be more clear.

I think the OP had some incorrect selections as his example. I agree that non player race monsters should be the way they are, but the alternate player races, Barathu, Contemplative, Draelik, Dragonkin, Drow, Formian, Space Goblin, Gray, Haan, Ikeshti, Kalo, Maraquoi, Nuar, Ryphorian, Sarcesian, Shobhad, Skittermander, Urog, Verthani, Witchwyrd and Wrikreechee shoudl also follow the NPC rules being used for creating NPCs of Core system rules. Otherwise they do not follow the same logic. Either its ok for Core races to be in the NPC race list, or the AA races should not for custom NPCs that follow class builds.

I think this is the key confusion. Why are these races allowed to be done this way, but the player races that are blank NPC options cannot.

This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?

That may help with the confusion for people switching over from Pathfinder.

I am saying that there should be consistency on how you create an NPC that is a player race/class. Forgive me, I am not at home and so do not have my book to review, but on the surface the process should be the same.

For instance if I create a Human Bounty Hunter/Soldier as an NPC, the process for that should be the same as if I created a Drow Bounty Hunter Soldier. If that is as a custom race, selecting humanoid and then Human, it should be the same for selecting Drow. Consistency is the only way that the tool will remain functional and clear without causing unnecessary error reports due to unclear processes because you do it differently depending on which book the race originated from.

Xxxxxxxxxx

So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?

Please describe how these differ currently. For both of these, I would start with a custom NPC, and add the array, type and subtype for the character I was building. Unless I'm creating a low-CR character, the choices that were made for the CR 1 drow enforcer are probably not going to be the same as I want for a CR 8 (for example) drow I'm creating, so if I added the pre-built one, it'd take a lot of steps to suppress all the things I don't want before I could add the things I did want.

Tinker is added by the Goblinoid subtype for creatures of the goblin race, and the drow version of the elf subtype adds the basic spell-like abilities, but I'd say no to Unstable Junklaser being there by default for the "just the race" version.

But yes, this is a level of complexity I hadn't gotten to when I was asking for clarification on whether I was understanding the overall project correctly, and there would be a number of decisions like these to be made in some cases.

No. I am not suggesting that LW decide what does/doesnt get included. It should be what is included when it is listed within the defined player race statblock. For instance.

If I wanted to create an enemy NPC CR3 Space Goblin Mechanic, I would ideally expect to do it in the following order:

1. Race - Space Goblin
1.1 Autoset Creature Type - Humanoid(Goblin)
1.2 Autoset languages - Common, Goblin
1.3 Autoset Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
1.4 Autoset Creature Subtype Graft - Goblinoid
2. Set CR to 3
3. Array - Expert
4. Class Graft - Mechanic
5. Choose the stat settings you want set

Etc.. filling in remaining details. As a Goblin created under this method I would expect the following racial "statblock" elements as listed on pg 55 of AA:
RACIAL TRAITS
Ability Adjustments: +4 Dex, –2 Cha
Hit Points: 2
Size and Type: Space goblins are Small humanoids with the goblinoid subtype.
Darkvision: Space goblins have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Fast: Space goblins are fast for their size and have a base speed of 35 feet.
Scrounger: Space goblins receive a +2 racial bonus to Engineering, Stealth, and Survival checks.
Tinker: See page 54.

This is the current process to create this creature.

The issue is when you create something from the CRB. Making this same character, but as a Android would follow this path:

1. Race - custom
2. Set CR to 3
2. Array - Expert
3. Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
4. Creature Subtype Graft - Android
5. Class Graft - Mechanic
6. Choose the stat settings you want set

Both paths get nearly the same result, but the 1st route is significantly more intuitive to how you would expect to create a NPC for an existing race. You would not intuitively think to create a custom race NPC for a existing race in the game. I do not understand why instead all races couldn't just be managed from the Race selection and in the bare version, would not set any stat bonuses until the GM decides what they want set. (just like custom race) but without having to go through the multi-step custom race process.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the reasons employed here, but it just doesn't make sense that 'some' player races are functional as NPCs as a race selection, but other player races(specifically the ones from the CRB are only functional as a selection from a custom race creation)

As for the question on what abilities should come to an NPC as part of a class graft process, I would expect the elements listed under the racial traits for the PC class, not including items under specific monster creations in the AA book.

So Space Goblins would get Tinker, but not the junk laser as that is gear on the monster(not an actual racial benefit), Drow would get their immunities, magic etc, but not get the "create darkness, fighting styles (arcane assailant), rune of the eldritch knight" for the Enforcer monster or the "envoy improvisations (hidden agenda, improved get ’em, improved hurry, quick dispiriting taunt)" from the Arms dealer as those are defined monsters and should be as is.

Again, this is only my opinion, I am not the developer. Just saying what I believe makes sense for when I would create a NPC myself.

jlong05, your description of the steps is mixing together elements of PC character creation with NPC character creation - for example, the "Racial Traits" section you say to use is rules content that is only for PC characters, and is not used by NPCs (an NPC's ability scores are set by its array and CR - race does not impact them).

Which I said for a generic pc race should be left up to the gm to set. Let me try another way to explain, as my previous was to mainstream.

I want a CR3 drow ‘priest’, technomancer NPC. How should I do this? Custom has no Drow option as a creature subtype graft. If you select drow enforcer you are forced to a class craft for soldier, or the arms dealer forces envoy. Neither allows from what I can see as a way to create my priestly technomancer to run my evil cult following and torment my players.

These are the options that should be available following the rules from AA, but because you have all AA player races only selectable as a actual race for NPCs you prevent these options from being available.

As an addition, maybe I remember wrong, but I thought Pathfinder or maybe it was DND had commoner as a NPC monster that was available for each player race. This allowed you a base template to build from also but the assigned stat block as 10s adjusted for the stat block racial bonuses. I guess I just assumed that was the same in Starfinder as well for each playable race made available in the AA and APs.

Commoner is an NPC Class (not race, monster or template) in 3/3.5 and Pathfinder. You still had to "construct" your base character before adding the class. Starfinder is not PF or 3.5, it's built completely differently - you can't make characters in the same way. PC's and NPC's are not made the same way (Starfinder Rules, not HL/LW choice) and it sounds like you want them to be the same. You can tell Paizo you don't like their way of doing things, but it isn't likely to change the way this happens now.
Maybe an "Encounter Builder" for Starfinder with a bunch of pre-built NPCs to choose from would help you.

I said I couldn’t remember, not that I wanted it to the case. I was offering it as a possible option if it was valid. As you said it is not. What is valid however is my wanting to create custom NPCs following the AA rules for player race selections. Currently ONLY CRB player races work. The AA player races appear missing as the method to use them is different. HLO needs to be consistent for all player races to be used as NPCs, and it currently isn’t. CRB use custom race, but AA races are coded as normal race options, but as I showed for Drow locked to specific grafts, without options to customize.

Hopefully this is simply just an oversight and the AA races will be added as custom race selections, or vice versa the CRB player races will become standard race selections. I have a feeling the only correct method though is the custom route as the CRB races are missing valid stat blocks as a monster.

I'll admit my motivation on this is actually a bit backwards. What I really want is for making a PC that takes the human race chassis as a baseline and modifies it from there. And I hadn't seen the 'custom race' option on the PC side until now. I'd still like to see the core races as presets, but might be able to at least get my own character done.

When you choose Custom Race, click on the race when it is added and give it the name "Drow", then just add the array and technomancer class graft. Since there isn't a subtype graft specifically for drow, add the Elf subtype and then select "Drow" in its dropdown.

You can then add whatever abilities you like past there. If by "priest" you mean the theme, you can either add each ability that adds individually, or the parent ability which bootstraps the set.

While I understand I can go about the entire custom process, the race is in fact in the game with base racial abilities that should be set when you select Drow as a race. I continue to hear this about subtype graft, which is accurate, but clearly poorly designed by Paizo. Its unfortunate that we have to jump through hoops to create the NPC we want simply because Paizo didn't spell it out for everyone, unless we are to believe that NO new AA races are expected to be used outside the defined designs they created.

Again, nothing that LW can fix, as they need to follow the rules as written, I just will wait till we can add custom content ourselves and fix as it is needed.

Yes this is different from Pathfinder. But its not a "jump through hoops" because its a bad thing. Its a different and better way to craft NPCs. If you give it a try you may find you like it way better.

Pathfinder monster creation rules do not work and only "sort of" mimic the same rules as a PC. They really don't and if you ever tried to make a PF1 monster from scratch its comes really clear they don't work. Here is even Mark Seifter post saying the same thing about PF1 rules. It really is much better once you toss out the PF1 rules and start using Starfinder monster rules (plus I am sure this will be close to PF2 rules if you plan to play PF2). I think you will really enjoy the time savings. :)

Just wanted to add I 100% agree with this part. HLO is just not going to feel complete until we have an editor. :(

Just a suggestion, but either this thread or the one linked by ShadowChemosh above should be made into a STICKY.

Personally, I'm really liking HeroLab Online. And while I was initially VERY resistant to NPCs being built by different rules than PCs, I'm finding that with SF the differences are slight enough that unless a character becomes a recurring NPC, the differences probably aren't worth the fuss.

However, trying to figure out how to build the NPCs was much less intuitive and was taking longer than making PCs until I found these threads. That's not a knock at Lone Wolf since they're just adapting the NPC rules, but it was counter-intuitive to not select Race-->Human when HLO was constantly prompting me to select a race!

Now that I know to use Custom Race as my starting point when building anything other than a premade Alien/"Named Encounter" NPC, it goes much more quickly.

I do think having "stock race baseline" with base options autoselected would be more intuitive, but the current NPC build system works just fine. But it could be a bit clearer that Custom Race is a typical starting point.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the issue you are running into please disregard this if I am), but you can select the races from Alien Archive to create an NPC with Hero Lab Online. Select "Custom Race" for the NPC, Select "Humanoid" for the Creature Type Graft, then select the humanoid subtype (e.g. vesk, kish, reptoid, etc.) using the Creature Subtype Graft table.

You can still create an NPC using the same rules as a PC. I am not entirely sure how balanced that would be, but you could certainly do it. Just roll up a PC and use it as an NPC.

As far as I know, the rules for NPC building in Starfinder are similar to what Paizo used for Pathfinder 1st Ed. The Bestiaries have a "Monster Creation" appendix at the back which have tables for stats, grafts for different creature types/subtypes. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I haven't GM'd a Pathfinder game before so it isn't something I am super familiar with.

The confusion is coming from the idea that GM wants to just add "Human" or "Elf" as the race and go to town. Its a fall out from the way PF1 does stuff and not yet common knowledge that Starfinder does not build NPCs that way.

I would advise against this as PC and NPC math is very different. PCs have much higher AC but lower attack values. NPCs have very low AC but much higher attack values. Other differences but those are the most obvious. Why this could be fun for a boss/sub-boss encounter it does not go well for what should be easy combat encounters. The higher AC means it could feel like a slug with everyone missing each other.

Actually its very different from PF1 rules. Its much closer to the Unchained Pathfinder rules which where 'optional' and not used by everyone. PF1 monsters attempt to use the same rules as the PCs so that hit dice equals level and require spending resources like skill ranks and feats. Starfinder is designed to use fast generation rules without needing to deal with lots of small minutia of details.

Thanks for clarifying some points for me, ShadowChemosh!