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Has umax changed?

  • Thread starter Thread starter cujo4103 at yahoo.com
  • Start date Start date
C

cujo4103 at yahoo.com

Guest
Hello,
Can someone confirm this behavior?

The BFG files have a unit with the attribute umax:1m-min=1000
Another unit has umax:1m@1000-part
Neither of these do what they used to do. The umax with the min tag
should limit the unit to fleets over 1000 points only. The umax with
the part tag would allow 1 unit for every 1000 points in the fleet or
part thereof.

To check these in the BFG files, create a chaos space marine fleet.
Take the Planet Killer. The PK has the min restriction but I don't
see a validation error for this.
Remove the PK from the fleet and add 2 Battle Barges. The BB has the
part tag. Again, I see no validation errors for this.

Units using umax:1m without any other tags work fine.

I'm using AB2.2c, construction kit 2.2b, and Windows 98.

Thanks,
Hugo


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--- In armybuilder@y..., "emperorfranz" <cujo4103@y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> Can someone confirm this behavior?

It's a pilot error problem within AB :-)

If you create an unlimited size roster, the validation works
correctly (well, it did for me when I tried it just then)

If you create a 1000pt roster, you've already told AB how big your
force is, it's 1000pts. You can have 1 PK in 1000pts, and you've
told AB you've got 1000pts so there's no problem :-) If you create
an army of 999pts, you'll notice the validation is triggered when
you add the PK....

> Thanks,
> Hugo

Cheers,
Russell
----
Russell Sparkes - rjs@inorbit.com - http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
"Experience is what you get just after you needed it" - Unknown


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Thanks!
This was driving me up the wall. I knew it had worked...and I guess it
still does.

Shouldn't this be noted somewhere for users? Basically, I can now
falsify my validation by setting the roster size to some number
greater than my true points spent but less than infinity. I know alot
of people blindly trust the validation summary that prints on a roster
sheet and while someone knowledgeable of this "feature" might catch
this, others won't. There aren't any beardy players out there are there?

Thanks,
Hugo

--- In armybuilder@y..., "rjsoz" <rjs@i...> wrote:
> --- In armybuilder@y..., "emperorfranz" <cujo4103@y...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Can someone confirm this behavior?
>
> It's a pilot error problem within AB :-)
>
> If you create an unlimited size roster, the validation works
> correctly (well, it did for me when I tried it just then)
>
> If you create a 1000pt roster, you've already told AB how big your
> force is, it's 1000pts. You can have 1 PK in 1000pts, and you've
> told AB you've got 1000pts so there's no problem :-) If you create
> an army of 999pts, you'll notice the validation is triggered when
> you add the PK....
>
> > Thanks,
> > Hugo
>
> Cheers,
> Russell
> ----
> Russell Sparkes - rjs@i... - http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
> "Experience is what you get just after you needed it" - Unknown


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--- In armybuilder@y..., "emperorfranz" <cujo4103@y...> wrote:
> Shouldn't this be noted somewhere for users? Basically, I can now
> falsify my validation by setting the roster size to some number
> greater than my true points spent but less than infinity. I know
alot
> of people blindly trust the validation summary that prints on a
roster
> sheet and while someone knowledgeable of this "feature" might catch
> this, others won't. There aren't any beardy players out there are
there?
>
Well, it kinda IS noted in the ArmyBldr.rtf doc... Under "Creating
an Army Roster" it refers to the benefits of choosing a fixed point
size roster (as opposed to "unlimited" points), one of which is
appropriate validation for the roster size you have chosen. If you
choose the wrong roster size you're on your own as far as validation
goes!

Cheers,
Russell
----
Russell Sparkes - rjs@i... - http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
"Experience is what you get just after you needed it" - Unknown


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Since AB printouts explicitly state the roster size within the banner
across the top, it ought to be pretty difficult to slip this by a
tournament organizer. :-)

Hope this helps,
Rob


At 03:56 AM 3/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>Shouldn't this be noted somewhere for users? Basically, I can now
>falsify my validation by setting the roster size to some number
>greater than my true points spent but less than infinity. I know alot
>of people blindly trust the validation summary that prints on a roster
>sheet and while someone knowledgeable of this "feature" might catch
>this, others won't. There aren't any beardy players out there are there?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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Good point. That still requires that the organizer compare the roster
size in the banner to the point total listed at the end of the
roster. One of the situations that was befuddling me was a 1000pt
roster for which I was only able to "spend" 995pts. The particular
unit in question can only be taken AT 1000pts but this was so close
that I might not notice the discrepancy just by looking at the army
arrayed in front of me. In a game amongst friends this is no problem
but as you pointed out, tournaments or other gamers I've met for the
first time should/might take exception if I claim full compliance
which is untrue. Of course there are always the honest mistakes
people make too. All of these reasons are why I was suggesting that a
flag should be generated for this situation.
Thanks,
Hugo

--- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> Since AB printouts explicitly state the roster size within the
banner
> across the top, it ought to be pretty difficult to slip this by a
> tournament organizer. :-)
>
> Hope this helps,
> Rob
>
>
> At 03:56 AM 3/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >Shouldn't this be noted somewhere for users? Basically, I can now
> >falsify my validation by setting the roster size to some number
> >greater than my true points spent but less than infinity. I know
alot
> >of people blindly trust the validation summary that prints on a
roster
> >sheet and while someone knowledgeable of this "feature" might catch
> >this, others won't. There aren't any beardy players out there are
there?
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Rob Bowes (rob@w...) (650) 726-9689
> Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com


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Please point out the exact situation you're describing here, since I'm
confused. In general (i.e. unless the data file author takes steps to
sidestep this behavior), AB uses the specified roster size for calculating
everything. Therefore, if you specify that you are creating a 1000-point
roster, AB will validate the roster as if it's a 1000-point roster - even
if you only have 995 points of units in it. The exception to this is when
the user specifies an "Unlimited" size roster. In this situation, AB must
use the current total roster cost as its basis for all validation. The
simple solution it therefore to always specify the desired target roster
size (e.g. 1000 points), as this should always yield the proper validation
testing.

If you are experiencing behavior other than what I just outlined, please
provide me with details so that I can investigate it further. It's possible
that the data file author explicitly chose to utilize rules that work on
the accumulated roster size, but that's unlikely. If it's a bug within the
product, then I need to know about it so that I can get it on the bug list
and fix it.

Thanks, Rob


At 04:43 AM 3/25/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>Good point. That still requires that the organizer compare the roster
>size in the banner to the point total listed at the end of the
>roster. One of the situations that was befuddling me was a 1000pt
>roster for which I was only able to "spend" 995pts. The particular
>unit in question can only be taken AT 1000pts but this was so close
>that I might not notice the discrepancy just by looking at the army
>arrayed in front of me. In a game amongst friends this is no problem
>but as you pointed out, tournaments or other gamers I've met for the
>first time should/might take exception if I claim full compliance
>which is untrue. Of course there are always the honest mistakes
>people make too. All of these reasons are why I was suggesting that a
>flag should be generated for this situation.
>Thanks,
>Hugo


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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--- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> Please point out the exact situation you're describing here, since
> I'm confused.
[snip]

There's no bug... The concern is that I CHOOSE a 2000 pt roster for
my 1000 point game, only spend 1000 of the points, get no validation
errors (despite choosing illegal units for a 1000 point game) and
then submit that roster to a tourney organiser as VALID (there's no
validation errors and the total roster size is 1000 points). The
tourney organiser has to check the top of the roster where it
says "2000 point force" (or whatever it says :-) to ensure the
correct validation rules have been applied...

It's simply a case of misusing the tool and taking advantage of
others lack of knowledge of the product to cheat.

I guess if there's any bug fix/enhancement to be made, it's a
validation warning that the roster is not within x% of the specified
size...

Example: I choose a 2000 point roster. 5% is 100 points, so as long
as I actually spend over 1900 points, everything is fine. If on the
other hand I go and spend 998 points (and choose units only
available for a 2000 point army even though my army is only 1000
points) I'll get an error similar to the "you've spent too many
points" message that says "you haven't spent enough points" or
something similar...

Just my 2c,
Cheers,
Russell.
----
Russell Sparkes - rjs@inorbit.com - http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
"Experience is what you get just after you needed it" - Unknown


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Ok i got the orks to work after playing with it a bit
more. and I did find about the 10 points and 15 point
in psychic powers in chaos

--- rjsoz <rjs@inorbit.com> wrote:
> --- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> > Please point out the exact situation you're
> describing here, since
> > I'm confused.
> [snip]
>
> There's no bug... The concern is that I CHOOSE a
> 2000 pt roster for
> my 1000 point game, only spend 1000 of the points,
> get no validation
> errors (despite choosing illegal units for a 1000
> point game) and
> then submit that roster to a tourney organiser as
> VALID (there's no
> validation errors and the total roster size is 1000
> points). The
> tourney organiser has to check the top of the roster
> where it
> says "2000 point force" (or whatever it says :-) to
> ensure the
> correct validation rules have been applied...
>
> It's simply a case of misusing the tool and taking
> advantage of
> others lack of knowledge of the product to cheat.
>
> I guess if there's any bug fix/enhancement to be
> made, it's a
> validation warning that the roster is not within x%
> of the specified
> size...
>
> Example: I choose a 2000 point roster. 5% is 100
> points, so as long
> as I actually spend over 1900 points, everything is
> fine. If on the
> other hand I go and spend 998 points (and choose
> units only
> available for a 2000 point army even though my army
> is only 1000
> points) I'll get an error similar to the "you've
> spent too many
> points" message that says "you haven't spent enough
> points" or
> something similar...
>
> Just my 2c,
> Cheers,
> Russell.
> ----
> Russell Sparkes - rjs@inorbit.com -
> http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
> "Experience is what you get just after you needed
> it" - Unknown
>
>


=====


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Hmmm. If you specifically create a 2000 point roster, the big banner across
the top of the roster will state that you are submitting a "2000 Point
Army". Granted, the total points in the lower right will be 1000 points.
However, the roster printout still proudly declares the roster as being
designed based on the rules for a "2000 Point" roster. Since it is
perfectly legal to create a roster of any size LESS than the specified
amount, AB has no way of knowing whether the user is trying to slip
something by. A tournament organizer simply needs to look at the top each
page of the roster to know the basis upon which the roster was created.
Personally, I don't think that's asking too much of the TO. :-)

I'll log your request as a wish list item for a future release, but I
certainly don't consider this to be a "bug".

Thanks, Rob


At 01:44 AM 4/2/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> > Please point out the exact situation you're describing here, since
> > I'm confused.
>[snip]
>
>There's no bug... The concern is that I CHOOSE a 2000 pt roster for
>my 1000 point game, only spend 1000 of the points, get no validation
>errors (despite choosing illegal units for a 1000 point game) and
>then submit that roster to a tourney organiser as VALID (there's no
>validation errors and the total roster size is 1000 points). The
>tourney organiser has to check the top of the roster where it
>says "2000 point force" (or whatever it says :-) to ensure the
>correct validation rules have been applied...
>
>It's simply a case of misusing the tool and taking advantage of
>others lack of knowledge of the product to cheat.
>
>I guess if there's any bug fix/enhancement to be made, it's a
>validation warning that the roster is not within x% of the specified
>size...
>
>Example: I choose a 2000 point roster. 5% is 100 points, so as long
>as I actually spend over 1900 points, everything is fine. If on the
>other hand I go and spend 998 points (and choose units only
>available for a 2000 point army even though my army is only 1000
>points) I'll get an error similar to the "you've spent too many
>points" message that says "you haven't spent enough points" or
>something similar...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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I'm describing the BFG files specifically here. The cheapest ship
(model) is probably 25 points with cruisers ranging from 110 pts to
290 pts and battleships even more expensive. Because the cheapest
unit still has a high point value if is difficult to truely spend the
exact amount of points on an agreed upon game. I'm lucky if I get
within 25 points of the agreed upon total.
The Eldar roster is easiest to check since it has the Void Stalker
battleship which can only be taken at 1000pts or greater fleets. The
cheapest eldar ship is 40pts which makes it exceedingly difficult to
point up a fleet to exactly 1000pts.
This further complicated by the possibility that I may want to select
ship for a specific mission and the point value of those ships might
be even higher making it that much more difficult to point up an
exact fleet size. Just because I can't spend all the points available
to me in my fleet doesn't mean that the validation rules should
depend on the selected roster size rather than the points I've
actually spent.
I've received more than a few "bug" reports on the BFG files for this
so I've added a design note to all the races for the next release so
that users will be forewarned of this situation.
Thanks,
Hugo (BTW I'm the current BFG files owner)

--- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> Please point out the exact situation you're describing here, since
I'm
> confused. In general (i.e. unless the data file author takes steps
to
> sidestep this behavior), AB uses the specified roster size for
calculating
> everything. Therefore, if you specify that you are creating a 1000-
point
> roster, AB will validate the roster as if it's a 1000-point roster -
even
> if you only have 995 points of units in it. The exception to this
is when
> the user specifies an "Unlimited" size roster. In this situation,
AB must
> use the current total roster cost as its basis for all validation.
The
> simple solution it therefore to always specify the desired target
roster
> size (e.g. 1000 points), as this should always yield the proper
validation
> testing.
>
> If you are experiencing behavior other than what I just outlined,
please
> provide me with details so that I can investigate it further. It's
possible
> that the data file author explicitly chose to utilize rules that
work on
> the accumulated roster size, but that's unlikely. If it's a bug
within the
> product, then I need to know about it so that I can get it on the
bug list
> and fix it.
>
> Thanks, Rob
>
>
> At 04:43 AM 3/25/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >Good point. That still requires that the organizer compare the
roster
> >size in the banner to the point total listed at the end of the
> >roster. One of the situations that was befuddling me was a 1000pt
> >roster for which I was only able to "spend" 995pts. The particular
> >unit in question can only be taken AT 1000pts but this was so close
> >that I might not notice the discrepancy just by looking at the army
> >arrayed in front of me. In a game amongst friends this is no
problem
> >but as you pointed out, tournaments or other gamers I've met for
the
> >first time should/might take exception if I claim full compliance
> >which is untrue. Of course there are always the honest mistakes
> >people make too. All of these reasons are why I was suggesting
that a
> >flag should be generated for this situation.
> >Thanks,
> >Hugo
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Rob Bowes (rob@w...) (650) 726-9689
> Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com


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This is alot more blatant than the situation I was thinking but yes
you have the gist of the problem.
Thanks,
Hugo

--- In armybuilder@y..., "rjsoz" <rjs@i...> wrote:
> --- In armybuilder@y..., Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> > Please point out the exact situation you're describing here,
since
> > I'm confused.
> [snip]
>
> There's no bug... The concern is that I CHOOSE a 2000 pt roster for
> my 1000 point game, only spend 1000 of the points, get no
validation
> errors (despite choosing illegal units for a 1000 point game) and
> then submit that roster to a tourney organiser as VALID (there's no
> validation errors and the total roster size is 1000 points). The
> tourney organiser has to check the top of the roster where it
> says "2000 point force" (or whatever it says :-) to ensure the
> correct validation rules have been applied...
>
> It's simply a case of misusing the tool and taking advantage of
> others lack of knowledge of the product to cheat.
>
> I guess if there's any bug fix/enhancement to be made, it's a
> validation warning that the roster is not within x% of the
specified
> size...
>
> Example: I choose a 2000 point roster. 5% is 100 points, so as long
> as I actually spend over 1900 points, everything is fine. If on the
> other hand I go and spend 998 points (and choose units only
> available for a 2000 point army even though my army is only 1000
> points) I'll get an error similar to the "you've spent too many
> points" message that says "you haven't spent enough points" or
> something similar...
>
> Just my 2c,
> Cheers,
> Russell.
> ----
> Russell Sparkes - rjs@i... - http://www.freecfm.com/r/rjs
> "Experience is what you get just after you needed it" - Unknown


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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No Minimums.
FREE Money 2002.
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