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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Birthright For Pathfinder for HL
- Thread starter Sarelth
- Start date
You should also check out the free players guide for the Hell's Rebels Adventure Path.... even if you have no plans to play it. The guide presents a rebel organization in a manner similar to a Kingdom from the Ultimate Campaign rules (there are some differences, though) and gives it some actions it can take. This *might* be a model to pursue for making other organizations that can act in the political arena, but that would almost have to be some kind of community expansion.
The Kingdom rules debuted in the Kingmaker Adventure Path players' guide, which is still available as a free download from Paizo.
Actually, even if someone doesn't plan to play the Adventure Paths, grabbing players' guides can prove useful for sparking ideas.
I have all the Player's Guide so far and I have glances through most. Have not gotten around to reading every little thing though.
I agree they are great for ideas. I Kinda wish I could get them all as paper pound though. I have a easier time reading them that way. May just have to import them all to the Ipad and read them there soon.
I agree they are great for ideas. I Kinda wish I could get them all as paper pound though. I have a easier time reading them that way. May just have to import them all to the Ipad and read them there soon.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
THIS! Forget killing a tree. I recommend GoodReader by the way as it works great for reading and sorting pdfs including making Folders on the iPad. It also works great for downloading direct from Paizo website as it has a built in unzip program. So you simply download in the browser and open in GoodReader and away you go.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
Yes that is one way. You could also write a script at like "First/1000" that would reset the ClSpecWhen.? tag to a new value.
Example Script:
Code:
perform hero.findchild[BaseClSpec,"thingid.XXXX & ClSpecWhen.Y"].tagreplace[ClSpecWhen.Y,ClSpecWhen.Z]The source I am using for the Paladin Archetypes is a 3rd edition conversion of the Birthright info. They moved Paladin abilities around a lot and I am trying to figure out if its best to keep the standard pathfinder Paladin abilities where they are or if i should move them to where the 3rd edition stuff. I am thinking of doing a bit of both, since some pathfinder abilities are much better than the 3rd edition version. The joys of converting a conversion...
Also, are there many abilities that do the You can use the X rounds per day? One of the Paladin Archetypes has 2 abilities that they tacked that to in the 3rd edition version. If that type of ability is not common in Pathfinder I don't want to use it and will make it a 1/day or something instead. EDIT: Decided on the 1/day for Freedom of movement, similar to the monk ability, still thinking about the Water breathing/walking ability.
One of the Archetypes also gives the Paladin in question access to level 0 - level 6 spells. Not sure how balanced that is since the archetype really does not take anything away from the class to allow that extra spell power.
Also, are there many abilities that do the You can use the X rounds per day? One of the Paladin Archetypes has 2 abilities that they tacked that to in the 3rd edition version. If that type of ability is not common in Pathfinder I don't want to use it and will make it a 1/day or something instead. EDIT: Decided on the 1/day for Freedom of movement, similar to the monk ability, still thinking about the Water breathing/walking ability.
One of the Archetypes also gives the Paladin in question access to level 0 - level 6 spells. Not sure how balanced that is since the archetype really does not take anything away from the class to allow that extra spell power.
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Bought a new book for HL and am just waiting for a reallocation of my license and I will post some more updates. Still having an issue with exporting to hl format. Will see if i can get it going, then I can get rid of the zip file and just update a file in my dropbox.
Looking into getting back to this conversion project. I have a point of confusion, though. In Birthright, there are Realm level spells. They cast from a different pool than regular ones. Would it be easier to add a second range of spells to the caster classes or is there another way?
In the original source, Realm spells counted as the normal spell levels but they had effects that were much more powerful. Such as covering a whole province or country in impenetrable fog or raising an army of undead in one spell. I think it would be best to implement them separately from regular magic. Also, some counted as Divine only and some as Arcane only, but many fit into both groups.
The next issue becomes figuring out how to add them to the classes without editing each class individually preferably. Though thankfully only a few classes would need to be modified as True Magic is limited by a few things.
In the original source, Realm spells counted as the normal spell levels but they had effects that were much more powerful. Such as covering a whole province or country in impenetrable fog or raising an army of undead in one spell. I think it would be best to implement them separately from regular magic. Also, some counted as Divine only and some as Arcane only, but many fit into both groups.
The next issue becomes figuring out how to add them to the classes without editing each class individually preferably. Though thankfully only a few classes would need to be modified as True Magic is limited by a few things.
Honestly, I would not worry about doing Realm Magic at all in HeroLab.
HeroLab's focus is the character and small-scale combat, not campaign-level magic.
Paizo has done Mass Combat in Ultimate Campaign. I would look at Occult Rituals in Occult Adventures as the basis for Realm-scale magic.
I would also look at what Legendary Games has done with their "Ultimate" plug-ins line (Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate War, Ultimate Battle, and the recent Ultimate Factions) to extend the basic Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign (unfortunately, this would be a lot of work.. many of them are more "alternate rules" than "expansion rules").
HeroLab's focus is the character and small-scale combat, not campaign-level magic.
Paizo has done Mass Combat in Ultimate Campaign. I would look at Occult Rituals in Occult Adventures as the basis for Realm-scale magic.
I would also look at what Legendary Games has done with their "Ultimate" plug-ins line (Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate War, Ultimate Battle, and the recent Ultimate Factions) to extend the basic Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign (unfortunately, this would be a lot of work.. many of them are more "alternate rules" than "expansion rules").
I am more looking for a way to keep track of the Realm Level spells on the sheet easily.
I think I may have been mildly overthinking. I see exactly what you mean and it makes sense. Rituals would make sense as a Realm Spell takes a month to cast (a realm round).
I think I may have been mildly overthinking. I see exactly what you mean and it makes sense. Rituals would make sense as a Realm Spell takes a month to cast (a realm round).
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Yes... exactly. I would also think about leveraging the existing Kingdom and Mass Combat materials for as much as possible. Using Kingdom BP (Build Points) as the replacement for GB (Gold Bars), and using Downtime Organizations & Buildings as replacements for un-landed Domains -- especially the 3PP Treatment of Factions in Legendary Games' "Ultimate Factions". The main thing that is missing is a means to have the Factions take actions. I had hoped that a treatment of Militias (in the "Lands of Conflict" sourcebook) would open that kind of mechanic up for use, but LWD has not implemented it.
Kingdoms are already a "hero type" in HeroLab, but the Organizations are not; they're anchored to a character as auxiliary data.
I would have to figure out how to make the kingdom stuff work better for a Birthright theme. Or rather make Birthright work for the Kingdom system.
BP and Downtime stuff is okay the way it's done in PF.
The militia stuff would be nice to see implemented, it will get there eventually I am sure.
What I need to do is figure out how to implement Bloodlines properly as well as Awnsheghlien and Ersheghlien, though they could be just custom monsters that are up to the DM to make, I would like a bit of a system to make them.
I think Bloodline would be easiest as a simple Template that just adds some notes. So a Template to select strength (Tainted, Minor, Major, Great and True), then a selector for the bloodline power (1 - 100 ish). As that info really only matters for the Realm level stuff.
Blood abilities could be a special type of selector linked to the template.
BP and Downtime stuff is okay the way it's done in PF.
The militia stuff would be nice to see implemented, it will get there eventually I am sure.
What I need to do is figure out how to implement Bloodlines properly as well as Awnsheghlien and Ersheghlien, though they could be just custom monsters that are up to the DM to make, I would like a bit of a system to make them.
I think Bloodline would be easiest as a simple Template that just adds some notes. So a Template to select strength (Tainted, Minor, Major, Great and True), then a selector for the bloodline power (1 - 100 ish). As that info really only matters for the Realm level stuff.
Blood abilities could be a special type of selector linked to the template.
Birthright was such a fun setting... didn't get to play it enough. Our group had a campaign where we ended in Birthright, as non-regents... from Planescape, and got to experience the strange cultures and the attentions of an Awnsheglien.
We started a campaign as regents, and were a few turns into it when some of the players had to leave the group... so we never really got that far.
I believe I have all of the books, minus two of the kingdom specific domain books for the Khinasi region.
They're in a water proof container, under the house (crawl space).
We started a campaign as regents, and were a few turns into it when some of the players had to leave the group... so we never really got that far.
I believe I have all of the books, minus two of the kingdom specific domain books for the Khinasi region.
They're in a water proof container, under the house (crawl space).
Birthright was always one of my favorite settings.
Much more suited for Politics and Intrigue than for hack and slash.
I believe I have most of the books myself, though any I am missing in paper format, I have as digital, but it's just not the same.
I have run a couple games in the setting, we played it like a variant on Risk to a degree. I have also played in several games, though mostly of the PBEM variety. 1 or 2 were in the main setting and a couple more in custom worlds. They each were fun, though some were sadly cut short by life.
One PBEM variant was set in an earth-like world and I played as a country based off Greece and had a separate character that was based in Cappadocia. The Cappadocian was an Undead Ruler that favored conquest and war, hiring himself and his unliving army to the highest bidder, which turned out to be a vindictive Elven king that wished to remove humans from the surrounding lands. The game came to a halt before the war went into full swing, but the undead army was able to take out several provinces before the game died.
In another PBEM game, we set up a new continent and had a similar idea as the Kingmaker AP, with settlers from the old world coming in and trying to set up a foothold. The local inhabitants were semi-friendly, depending on which ones you met. I played a local tribespeople that followed a Sun goddess, they sought to push the newcomers back to where they came from due to an ancient prophecy but were not overly hostile, to begin with. It had a very Europeans finding North America feel to it, with some of the settlers seeking to force their ways on the natives while others were much more peaceful about things.
Much more suited for Politics and Intrigue than for hack and slash.
I believe I have most of the books myself, though any I am missing in paper format, I have as digital, but it's just not the same.
I have run a couple games in the setting, we played it like a variant on Risk to a degree. I have also played in several games, though mostly of the PBEM variety. 1 or 2 were in the main setting and a couple more in custom worlds. They each were fun, though some were sadly cut short by life.
One PBEM variant was set in an earth-like world and I played as a country based off Greece and had a separate character that was based in Cappadocia. The Cappadocian was an Undead Ruler that favored conquest and war, hiring himself and his unliving army to the highest bidder, which turned out to be a vindictive Elven king that wished to remove humans from the surrounding lands. The game came to a halt before the war went into full swing, but the undead army was able to take out several provinces before the game died.
In another PBEM game, we set up a new continent and had a similar idea as the Kingmaker AP, with settlers from the old world coming in and trying to set up a foothold. The local inhabitants were semi-friendly, depending on which ones you met. I played a local tribespeople that followed a Sun goddess, they sought to push the newcomers back to where they came from due to an ancient prophecy but were not overly hostile, to begin with. It had a very Europeans finding North America feel to it, with some of the settlers seeking to force their ways on the natives while others were much more peaceful about things.
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Bloodlines are a problem in a few ways.
First, as originally implemented, they suffer from the same problem as 1st/2nd Edition Psionics -- too random and dependent upon lucky rolls. That makes party balance really "swingy" with a single good or bad roll. 3rd Ed and Pathfinder have refused to continue this.. 3rd Ed Psionics (which became Dreamscarred Press' Pathfinder Psionics) re-worked everything into classes and disciplines, and that is the route bloodline powers would need to follow in Pathfinder as well. An archetype that allows someone to "swap" a regular class ability for a bloodline power (as the Qinggong does for Monks) is probably the cleanest approach, but that would mean a lot of specific archetypes, or one very complex one available to all classes.
Second, the bloodline strength as a limiter on the resources and actions of the kingdom does not fit with the Kingdom rules in Pathfinder. The kingdoms already have their own limiters. The ability to "spend" bloodline to influence the outcome of die rolls.. and the bidding wars that come from it... have no parallel in the Kingdom rules. I am not sure that working to add it in would contribute that much more to the system already in place. I would look first at rules for allowing interactive participation between Domains (landed and not) as opposed checks of some kind, then look at how to add modifiers for the influence of other interested parties (perhaps an "Aid Another" type of action). The use of Capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, Magic, and/or Gold; or BP) to affect the die roll would probably be more effective and smoother to implement than trying to create bloodline influence.
Bloodtheft promotes Player-vs-Player (PvP) conflict, which is not to everyone's liking. Advancing the bloodline power through Realm Actions is more peaceful, but is still a net power-up for PCs compared to another character of the same class and level. For these elements, a Prestige Class of "Regent" or "Ruler" might be appropriate.. one that requires killing another blooded individual as a requirement for each level taken (Bloodthieves) or the expenditure of Kingdom resources (BP) to advance. This would be a mutually-exclusive approach with the Archetype I mentioned above.
Ultimately, I think it is more important to work with the established structure as much as possible and to add the elements of political interaction (or analogous ones) that are missing, rather than to try to re-create elements of an old rules system within a greatly different new one.
First, as originally implemented, they suffer from the same problem as 1st/2nd Edition Psionics -- too random and dependent upon lucky rolls. That makes party balance really "swingy" with a single good or bad roll. 3rd Ed and Pathfinder have refused to continue this.. 3rd Ed Psionics (which became Dreamscarred Press' Pathfinder Psionics) re-worked everything into classes and disciplines, and that is the route bloodline powers would need to follow in Pathfinder as well. An archetype that allows someone to "swap" a regular class ability for a bloodline power (as the Qinggong does for Monks) is probably the cleanest approach, but that would mean a lot of specific archetypes, or one very complex one available to all classes.
Second, the bloodline strength as a limiter on the resources and actions of the kingdom does not fit with the Kingdom rules in Pathfinder. The kingdoms already have their own limiters. The ability to "spend" bloodline to influence the outcome of die rolls.. and the bidding wars that come from it... have no parallel in the Kingdom rules. I am not sure that working to add it in would contribute that much more to the system already in place. I would look first at rules for allowing interactive participation between Domains (landed and not) as opposed checks of some kind, then look at how to add modifiers for the influence of other interested parties (perhaps an "Aid Another" type of action). The use of Capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, Magic, and/or Gold; or BP) to affect the die roll would probably be more effective and smoother to implement than trying to create bloodline influence.
Bloodtheft promotes Player-vs-Player (PvP) conflict, which is not to everyone's liking. Advancing the bloodline power through Realm Actions is more peaceful, but is still a net power-up for PCs compared to another character of the same class and level. For these elements, a Prestige Class of "Regent" or "Ruler" might be appropriate.. one that requires killing another blooded individual as a requirement for each level taken (Bloodthieves) or the expenditure of Kingdom resources (BP) to advance. This would be a mutually-exclusive approach with the Archetype I mentioned above.
Ultimately, I think it is more important to work with the established structure as much as possible and to add the elements of political interaction (or analogous ones) that are missing, rather than to try to re-create elements of an old rules system within a greatly different new one.
That is true, while I liked the way things worked in 2nd edition. It does not really work how things are in Pathfinder.
I never really used the random aspect in 2nd edition, we would roll for power and strength, but usually picked the abilities to suit the character. Or followed a bloodline tree for a specific family.
A possibility is using something similar to Dragonmarks from Eberon. That could cause balance issues also though. Setting up a series of archetypes might be a good way of doing things, though with HL that would mean one for each power, for each class.
I think an archetype that adds a couple Bonus feats from a special feat list for Blood Abilities might work. With the Different levels of abilities being available at certain character levels. then you just have to set a Bloodline archetype for each of the different gods and set the feats for each one. Being dependent on level makes them more in line with pathfinder balance I think.
I never really used the random aspect in 2nd edition, we would roll for power and strength, but usually picked the abilities to suit the character. Or followed a bloodline tree for a specific family.
A possibility is using something similar to Dragonmarks from Eberon. That could cause balance issues also though. Setting up a series of archetypes might be a good way of doing things, though with HL that would mean one for each power, for each class.
I think an archetype that adds a couple Bonus feats from a special feat list for Blood Abilities might work. With the Different levels of abilities being available at certain character levels. then you just have to set a Bloodline archetype for each of the different gods and set the feats for each one. Being dependent on level makes them more in line with pathfinder balance I think.
Hmm.. I am thinking the dedicated class or classes are more suitable overall.
So.. one for Regents, and another for non-Regents with bloodline power. The two have a "bloodline" ability like a Sorcerer's, which has a specific "flavor" and which provides periodic choices of "Bloodline spell-like abilities" from a pool defined for that bloodline. In between those, the Regent one may add to Kingdom effects .. such as a bonus to Kingdom roles for specific jobs.
Perhaps classes that, like Prestige Classes, add to spellcasting abilities that you select which class to improve each level?
The main point would be to integrate bloodline effect increases with regular level progression, so all choices are a trade-off and MOSTLY equivalent (we can't really hope for them to be exactly equal).
At this point, all of my specific suggestions are just brainstorming, so please keep that in mind.
So.. one for Regents, and another for non-Regents with bloodline power. The two have a "bloodline" ability like a Sorcerer's, which has a specific "flavor" and which provides periodic choices of "Bloodline spell-like abilities" from a pool defined for that bloodline. In between those, the Regent one may add to Kingdom effects .. such as a bonus to Kingdom roles for specific jobs.
Perhaps classes that, like Prestige Classes, add to spellcasting abilities that you select which class to improve each level?
The main point would be to integrate bloodline effect increases with regular level progression, so all choices are a trade-off and MOSTLY equivalent (we can't really hope for them to be exactly equal).
At this point, all of my specific suggestions are just brainstorming, so please keep that in mind.