Keep in mind that when WotC launched 5e they announced it would include its own proprietary character tracker and GM aide software that promptly blew up and got canceled. There may be a feeling at WotC that LWD is a PF company and they want there own software not anything to do with Paizo. Tack on the stunning lack of understanding of the modern RPG market, no PDF's of your core offerings? really?, and I really would be shocked to see WotC be an early adopter of something like RW.
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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Realm Works Content Market - Pricing Details & More
- Thread starter BJ
- Start date
Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both have licenses now which leads me to believe options are on the table.
They keep getting burnt when they try to do software themselves and then they need to maintain and support it. All things that havn't worked so well for their business model.
I suspect that new digital division will put alot of focus on Magic. That's the money bag for them and if someone else has already spent many many years in development I suspect they will now go with a license option.
The DMsGuild is another example of a solid 3rd party solution that is doing great things for them.
They appear to be open to creating new relationships if the product is right.
They keep getting burnt when they try to do software themselves and then they need to maintain and support it. All things that havn't worked so well for their business model.
I suspect that new digital division will put alot of focus on Magic. That's the money bag for them and if someone else has already spent many many years in development I suspect they will now go with a license option.
The DMsGuild is another example of a solid 3rd party solution that is doing great things for them.
They appear to be open to creating new relationships if the product is right.
What's changed recently? Paizo's subscription program has been around for a very long time: "Buy the books direct from us at a discount, get the PDF with it, sell the physical book whenever you want and still have the content. Oh, and have a discount on anything else you happen to buy from us." That's never been friendly towards stores. :(
This is obviously a personal choice, but I think the choice depends on several variables. I am getting ready for my first PF game in years. We are starting Kingmaker in two weeks. There is no reason to think Kingmaker will be in the CM, so this doesn't really effect me right now. However, I will admit that the price points are high enough to make me really pause and consider what I will be paying for on the CM. I tend to enter things in RW as I am playing the game. So, I enter the info for a few sessions at a time usually. This does take some time, but it also allows me to organize as I see fit and I gain valuable familiarity with the material via entering it. I was expecting the cost to be roughly equal to what a PDF runs me (that may not have been reasonable, but true nevertheless), so this is a bit of a shock. Honestly, some of this depends how they break it up. If I can spend $25 every couple of months to get the materiel I need, I can see doing it. If I have to buy the whole AP in one chunk for $100+ I might not. Short sighted of me? Perhaps, but the monthly budget only has so much in it for RPG stuff. Also, we don't yet know what cloud service will cost. So, that $25 a month might end up being nearly twice that. Regardless of how reasonable the prices are, I am only willing to pay so much.
I kind of hope that they will produce some original content that is system neutral. I have high hopes for the player created content that is coming down the pike. Give me a great story that is well organized and I can add the mechanical bits. If I can pick up a solid RW module for under $15 I would certainly do it.
I share your approach. I'm far more interested in player created content than affical packages. Just give me a well-defined tavernkeeper to drop in when I short on time and need one and let me build my world and adventures for myself.
But for the folks who use modules a lot, this sucks, quite honestly. And no, I don't think this is LWD's fault. They probably shaved down their own profits as much as possible, but still...
As you say, one has only so much in his/her monthly budget for leisure stuff and I do have other costly hobbies (PC Games, skiing, going out drinking, and so forth), so I can't spent all of it for this. I already just sank nearly 100$ for HeroLab Licenses - it improved my performance at the game table, but I don't like to think about how many beers and pizzas that would have bought me.
Also, the image packs are also a bit pricy. I know artist want to live too, but 5 bucks for 10-15 images? If I'm really in a hurry, okay. But if you use it only for private games, there's sites like deviantart and artstation where you can find awesome stuff to use.
So, yeah, I'll keep creating my own adventures or filling in and adapting old things from my collection of Dungeon magazines. And if the community creates some nice things, I'll happily throw a little coin in their direction.
Even with that going on, we would still order and sell 12-24 of any new release. It was outselling 4e in most stores. 5e reduced those numbers but not significantly. The condescending attitude, the humble bundle test (which they promised us there would only be one of), the proliferation of SKUs, and general on-line discounting they do have alienated stores even more than the subscriptions. They were not really a big issue. It is more the constant undermining of retail that have driven retailers away from them.
I have no problem with a joint publication of pdfs and books sold at retail. We have participated for years and I personally with that more companies would do it this way. I want the book for looking at and reading off-screen and the pdfs to search for things quickly and for data entry into RW.
The prices are very steep IMNSHO. Alas, the hobby is small and RW base even smaller, so selling 10@$100 may make more sense to them than 1000@$10. People still buy $60 video games but a lot of indie companies with a LOT less investment and overhead make millions pricing themselves at $5-10.
They have one chance to do it right. I wish LWD luck. I'm underwhelmed.
They have one chance to do it right. I wish LWD luck. I'm underwhelmed.
I've been giving some serious thought to this announcement today. I think LWD is seriously missing the mark.
Yes, they need to sell full packaged adventures for those GM's that desire that. BUT the present fan base of RW is mostly not people who do that. And those GM's are more interested in AP's than in stand alone modules so they aren't going to attract new customers except with Emerald Spire and Razor Coast.
I think they would have been well served to find one or more of the small publishers who make things like this:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156518/Tangible-Taverns-The-Bull--The-Bear-PFRPG
(an example only I am not recommending this product)
Which would be an easy conversion to RW and be the sort of low cost "drop in" product many existing users of RW desire.
Yes, they need to sell full packaged adventures for those GM's that desire that. BUT the present fan base of RW is mostly not people who do that. And those GM's are more interested in AP's than in stand alone modules so they aren't going to attract new customers except with Emerald Spire and Razor Coast.
I think they would have been well served to find one or more of the small publishers who make things like this:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156518/Tangible-Taverns-The-Bull--The-Bear-PFRPG
(an example only I am not recommending this product)
Which would be an easy conversion to RW and be the sort of low cost "drop in" product many existing users of RW desire.
While I personally agree wholeheartily and am one of the RW users who absolutely prefer small drop-ins to large modules, we shouldn't forget that forums are usually populated by a vocal minority. So we're like a focus feedback group, but we can only guess what their business numbers and surveys are telling LWD.
But yeah, a well populated market with lots of smaller content to choose from whenever you need a place or encounter will certainly look better and generate more revenue in the long run than one with just a handful of big modules.
Publisher sign-on is a big deal for Realm Works, as it shows a measure of Publisher confidence in the platform. I have said before that Realm Works is a new publishing medium.. an evolution away from hard-copy and toward all-digital "living document" delivery. That's a "brave new world" for everyone, and there will be some bumps along the road. Maybe Paizo's model will become the standard.. and maybe it won't; at least they're giving it a try.
WotC would also be a big-name boost for Realm Works (and HeroLab). As a larger company, their legal team may be very reluctant to trust a new platform, a new medium, until someone else is the "test case". Given the struggles within WotC over open content, and their pricing of partner-delivered digital content, that could also be slowing the approvals of a license.
Smaller publishers may offer smaller products. "Widget" type products (small encounters, small numbers of NPCs, art packs, and the like) may be viable, or they may not. The task of loading and managing access may make a minimum price necessary, and market forced may lead to a minimum content size to go with that price.
One thing I will be curious to see is how Wayfinder is handled. It is a free fanzine created under Paizo's Community Usage Policy, available in PDF through Paizo's website. Print copies are usually available in limited quantities, especially around convention time. Whether this will make a transition to become a series of free Realm Works realms or not will be interesting.
WotC would also be a big-name boost for Realm Works (and HeroLab). As a larger company, their legal team may be very reluctant to trust a new platform, a new medium, until someone else is the "test case". Given the struggles within WotC over open content, and their pricing of partner-delivered digital content, that could also be slowing the approvals of a license.
Smaller publishers may offer smaller products. "Widget" type products (small encounters, small numbers of NPCs, art packs, and the like) may be viable, or they may not. The task of loading and managing access may make a minimum price necessary, and market forced may lead to a minimum content size to go with that price.
One thing I will be curious to see is how Wayfinder is handled. It is a free fanzine created under Paizo's Community Usage Policy, available in PDF through Paizo's website. Print copies are usually available in limited quantities, especially around convention time. Whether this will make a transition to become a series of free Realm Works realms or not will be interesting.
Same here. I understand and respect that LWD makes its decisions based on profit expectations.
But I use RW to manage and develope my homebrew worlds. I have no need for nor interest in D&D moduls. But smaller, adaptable and system neutral content could be quite useful for me. So, I am vocal about that, but might belong to a minority.
I have to say, I think it's hugely unfair to penalize people who buy hard copies of Paizo's books over the PDFs. Is there any way for us who still prefer hard copies to download the Realm Works content? Like, I can send Paizo camera pics of me holding the books...But seriously, if that remains a hard requirement I seriously doubt I'll buy any licensed content.
The only way to change it is to vote with your wallet. If LWD doesn't sell material because of a poor implementation, they will renegotiate it or they will find other publishers that are less demanding.
Putting goods on sale is a good indication that the pricing scheme is not working so let's see how quickly this happens and how often.
Putting goods on sale is a good indication that the pricing scheme is not working so let's see how quickly this happens and how often.
MNBlockHead
Well-known member
How is LWD development to blame? It's Paizo's stupid policy.
Well if I don't support Paizo's policy by repurchasing all my hardcover material into PDF's then LWD won't get my support through content market purchases now will they?
Edit: Also, if I won't be purchasing anything from the content market then I won't be supporting LWD by purchasing the RW cloud subscription either and will likely just simply not use the tool. I just don't have time to enter everything from scratch into RW and I've been delaying starting the second part of my campaign for the content market. It's just so disappointing that this (it if was known before which seems likely) wasn't communicated earlier. I was really really looking forward to using this tool... I even built a tv gaming table with the mindset to use RW and a VTT together for my sessions... I guess all is not loss as I can still use the table for the VTT.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just so incredibly disappointed.
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How would you change this? What would be a good policy? There was a suggestion that Paizo give a PDF copy for free with a hard copy. They could do this for future purchases, but what about the millions(?) of books already sold?
So I see the following two options, taking Dragon's Demand as an example:
Option 1:
PDF: 17.99 (with credit for already owned PDF)
RW: 9.99
Option 2:
RW: 26.99 (no PDF required or given)
Which is better for the consumer?
MNBlockHead
Well-known member
@Pollution
Thanks for bringing some reason to the knee-jerk sticker-shock reactions.
I don't like how Paizo requires folks to buy a PDF to buy other digital content. I think it is a dumb policy. But it isn't really about the cost for me.
When folks were complaining about the cost of 5e material in Fantasy Grounds, I didn't understand their anger. It gives you a version of the game that it is VTT ready. Putting that all into FG would require a huge amount of time. Would I like a discount if I already own the book, sure, but they are different products.
And you know what, despite all the internet-rage, the FG material seems to be selling well. I expect, and hope, that the same will be true for RW. Despite the frothing at the mouth over cost by some now, the value of having the material in RW will make it worth the spend for many.
Besides, the answer to the cost issue is competition. Get more systems into RW. Get more independent content. I've spent more money on third-party material through DriveThru RPG at $1 here and $10 there than I have spent on WoTC.
What seems to make folks the most angry is the expense of their favorite system. If you feel WoTC or Paizo are bilking you, go elsewhere. There are mountains of material you can acquire for dirt cheap or even free that will provide lifetimes of gaming goodness. It is only a matter of time that the dirt cheap and free material will be in RW.
Don't blame RW for Paizo's pricing, send your complaint's to Paizo. And if you really are offended by the cost, don't spend it. These are games, not medicine. There are more important things in life to direct your rage at and to lobby for.
I spend "too much" for the WoTC books because I like them. They are quality books that I enjoy, and considering the 1000s of hours of enjoyment they provide me for reading, game prep, and at the table, they are a not a bad investment. I would gladly spend the cost of the books to have them in RW as well, especially the APs, because it would be great to run them in RW and i have no interest in inputting all that stuff myself.
If I couldn't afford it, I would play something else.
Thanks for bringing some reason to the knee-jerk sticker-shock reactions.
I don't like how Paizo requires folks to buy a PDF to buy other digital content. I think it is a dumb policy. But it isn't really about the cost for me.
When folks were complaining about the cost of 5e material in Fantasy Grounds, I didn't understand their anger. It gives you a version of the game that it is VTT ready. Putting that all into FG would require a huge amount of time. Would I like a discount if I already own the book, sure, but they are different products.
And you know what, despite all the internet-rage, the FG material seems to be selling well. I expect, and hope, that the same will be true for RW. Despite the frothing at the mouth over cost by some now, the value of having the material in RW will make it worth the spend for many.
Besides, the answer to the cost issue is competition. Get more systems into RW. Get more independent content. I've spent more money on third-party material through DriveThru RPG at $1 here and $10 there than I have spent on WoTC.
What seems to make folks the most angry is the expense of their favorite system. If you feel WoTC or Paizo are bilking you, go elsewhere. There are mountains of material you can acquire for dirt cheap or even free that will provide lifetimes of gaming goodness. It is only a matter of time that the dirt cheap and free material will be in RW.
Don't blame RW for Paizo's pricing, send your complaint's to Paizo. And if you really are offended by the cost, don't spend it. These are games, not medicine. There are more important things in life to direct your rage at and to lobby for.
I spend "too much" for the WoTC books because I like them. They are quality books that I enjoy, and considering the 1000s of hours of enjoyment they provide me for reading, game prep, and at the table, they are a not a bad investment. I would gladly spend the cost of the books to have them in RW as well, especially the APs, because it would be great to run them in RW and i have no interest in inputting all that stuff myself.
If I couldn't afford it, I would play something else.
MNBlockHead
Well-known member
Sure. But the way your worded it, it sounds like a condemnation of LWD.
I guess we may just be coming from different places. I didn't buy RW to get and run published material. The content market is just a "plus" for me.
I bought RW to build my home brew campaign world. I doubt I'll buy any Paizo material anyway.
I'm more interested in game-neutral, fantasy-themed content that I can use in my campaign.
Since I'm looking to eventually run a couple of the official 5e APs, it would be nice if I could buy those from the CM to put in RW, but if they are not available or if I find them too expensive, I'll just run the game from the books. That won't mean that I no longer "support" LWD.