Have common issues been found to be behind why topics are crashing RW?

[Grey Mage]

The bug didn't delete any content that that was already in a saved topic. What happened is that I spent a lot of time working on a topic without saving, which is a bad practice, I know. Word Processing autosaves have gotten so good that I've become lax in saving as frequently as I should.

Been there done that already with RW... I now have started training myself to save after every three or four (short) topics.

That is one of the reasons I have been reminding the (please insert sugary sweet praising adjective here) developers about how nice it would be to have persistent tabs and such.

I know they will get around to it, but in the interim it does drive me crazy some times!

So far though, this last update seems to have corrected several things that were broken since the conversion to HTML.

Good job, guys.


PLEASE NOTE THERE WAS NO WHINING FOR EITHER PERSISTENT TABS OR CALENDARS IN THE ABOVE POST NOR WERE ANY TABS OR CALENDARS INJURED BY THIS POST

 

[meek75]

I'm very cautiously using RW...I kinda have to to run my campaign. But for any substantial amount of test I'm writing it out in another program and cutting and pasting into RW. Also, before editing any topic I'm taking screen shots in case it goes bad and I am no longer able to access it.

I must admit to being nervous. There is a new update out now and I'm hesitant to download it. I know it is a bug fix update and shouldn't cause in problem, but . . . When the major update was installed I was without any RW access for almost a full week. My group plays weekly and I found myself unable to to do any prep at all and unsure about having access game day. I couldn't drop back to running without RW, because so much of what I needed was in there. This was the second time an update shut down my RW for multiple days. We actually had to cancel the regular game following the major update. It makes me for sympathetic to those screaming for a export option. I love the features added during the major update. The ability to have different default formats is awesome. We still don't have any formatting control over the section titles, and that is a mystery to me. I had assumed I'd finally be able to have a section title that had a larger font than the rest of the body and maybe even a different color. The increased options for naming and linking are also very nice. However, the instability of RW has made me think strongly about shelving it for a while. I don't have the cynical view of LWD that Dark Lord Galin has adopted. I think the folks at LWD are doing there very best and are making a good faith effort to honor the KS and implement the most desired features. The progress is certainly much slower that any of us though it would be (including Rob I expect), and that is frustrating, but unavoidable. My #1 concern at this point is stability. I don't like playing Russian roulette with every update.

 

[Exmortis]

I must admit to being nervous. There is a new update out now and I'm hesitant to download it. I know it is a bug fix update and shouldn't cause in problem, but . . . When the major update was installed I was without any RW access for almost a full week. My group plays weekly and I found myself unable to to do any prep at all and unsure about having access game day. I couldn't drop back to running without RW, because so much of what I needed was in there. This was the second time an update shut down my RW for multiple days. We actually had to cancel the regular game following the major update. It makes me for sympathetic to those screaming for a export option. I love the features added during the major update. The ability to have different default formats is awesome. We still don't have any formatting control over the section titles, and that is a mystery to me. I had assumed I'd finally be able to have a section title that had a larger font than the rest of the body and maybe even a different color. The increased options for naming and linking are also very nice. However, the instability of RW has made me think strongly about shelving it for a while. I don't have the cynical view of LWD that Dark Lord Galin has adopted. I think the folks at LWD are doing there very best and are making a good faith effort to honor the KS and implement the most desired features. The progress is certainly much slower that any of us though it would be (including Rob I expect), and that is frustrating, but unavoidable. My #1 concern at this point is stability. I don't like playing Russian roulette with every update.

For me it is the exact opposite. Right after the major update I was pretty much stifled in RW, unable to work or even run a campaign I suspect. However beginning with each update things got better, I tooled around after each, made sure that if things still crashed the crash report went in, and I referenced my original bug report.

Somewhere along the way it got good enough for me to return to the development table for my two campaigns I am working on. I can't pin point which update exactly turned the corner, but for some time I have working away with near zero crashes. I have no reservations about updates, a backup is made of the my database upon updates, so worst comes to worse? I simply revert.

Big picture here everyone, this is how it works, everywhere, real life and in LWD or RW. Every major software update has its risks, and cascading affects. sometimes it goes badly, other times it goes not so badly.

Now for some real life, it is never about whether or not a problem happens, as Forest Gump so eloquently put for us "Shit happens". What is important is how those responsible handle said problem. LWD got right to work and output the first patch in a few days, then continued to work through the issues, patching them along the way for us. As with any plan, you work on what you can fix first, moving out from the "center" further an further until all issues are corrected. This also translates to longer times between patches and oft less fixed per patch. This is normal. A few folks here have some pretty big blinders on. BTW if their metal do not lick them, apparently that's bad.

LWD has progressed as I expected. Do I wish it was quicker? Yes. Do I wish there were less issues? Yes. But "Shit happens" and it isn't about the pile, but how it is cleaned up, and that we see continued effort to clean up said pile, LWD has not stopped working to get RW back to a fully functional state.

I paid $50 for RW approx. That's what? Three meals at Raunchy Ronald Rut Gut?

A deal by any standard to which you can hold LWD too.

 

[meek75]

Somewhere along the way it got good enough for me to return to the development table for my two campaigns I am working on. I can't pin point which update exactly turned the corner, but for some time I have working away with near zero crashes. I have no reservations about updates, a backup is made of the my database upon updates, so worst comes to worse? I simply revert.

Big picture here everyone, this is how it works, everywhere, real life and in LWD or RW. Every major software update has its risks, and cascading affects. sometimes it goes badly, other times it goes not so badly.

I don't mean to disparage LWD. As I said, I think they are doing the best they can with the resources they have. Also, I have no complaints about cost. I have already easily gotten $50 out of RW. My hesitation is simply about the impact these hiccups have on my game. If RW puts out an update that crashes my realm for a week I end up having to cancel a session and 5 people get very irritated with me. If this happens again I could see my group saying "Dude, drop RW and just prep like you used to." I don't have a solution to offer. I can't think of anyway for LWD to do it better. However, the reality is, I'm nervous.

 

[MNBlockHead]

meek75, with the caveat that your mileage may vary, the most recent update fixed all issues I was having with RW. For me, for the most part, RW has been stable. After the major upgrade that converted all content to HTML, many folks had issues, but most seem to have been fixed.

If you have the ability to take an image of your computer using built-in windows backup capabilities or a third-party product like Acronis or Shadowprotect, I recommend it before upgrading any mission-critical software. It is an additional step and takes some time, but if you find yourself needing to quickly get back to your last stable system, there is no better way.

I hear you about the export/print functionality. After the issues from the HTML conversion, the need for the ability to at least print the content I will need for my next session or two has become starkly apparent. But there has been plenty of discussion on that and those who follow these discussions know the challenges involved and that the content market is a necessary step towards that functionality being available.

Anyway, with the most recent update, things are stable and I'm back in and creating and editing with no issues so far. But, again, my system is not your system, etc. Back up and have a restore plan first.

 

[meek75]

If you have the ability to take an image of your computer using built-in windows backup capabilities or a third-party product like Acronis or Shadowprotect, I recommend it before upgrading any mission-critical software. It is an additional step and takes some time, but if you find yourself needing to quickly get back to your last stable system, there is no better way.

Hmm, that is an idea I hadn't considered. I'll look into it. Thanks for the thought. I did download the latest update and all seems to be going well. I too am back to entering data again. I just know that every time I have to cancel a game or substantially change one due to a RW issue my group is less and less patient.

 

[rob]

For what it's worth, the big conversion is now behind us and things continue to get significantly better with each new release (as evidenced by the comments from lots of users here on the forums). We're not entirely out of the woods yet - some bugs still remain. However, we're working our way through the remaining bugs, and those bugs are limited to special case situations that are affecting only a small number of users apiece.

We don't have any more major changes like this on the roadmap, so I expect that everything will shortly be back to the way it was before the big update last month (i.e. a smattering of small bugs that we fix as they are uncovered). The remaining changes we'll be making for Content Market and almost everything beyond it will be incremental in nature, not sweeping and pervasive like the HTML conversion, so there may be some hiccups along the way, but they should be pretty minor. This big conversion to HTML was the definite exception - not the rule.

 

[MNBlockHead]

meek75, not to beat a dead horse, but if you make it a practice to image before you upgrade, you'll never need to miss a game. The only time I've been set back is when I've spent a couple hours writing and editing content and not saving and then experienced a crash. Stupid not to save, but RW is usually so stable that I've developed the bad habit of not saving frequently. As Rob stated, the recent upgrades due to the conversion to HTML have been the exception.

I do two things that allow me to never worry about missing a game and they are based upon my practices for other mission-critical applications (the ones I actually need to make a living).

(1) System Image Backup. I take an image of my computer when it is stable and every time before an upgrade that, if it causes issues, would prevent me from working/playing. I don't use imaging as a work-product backup, just a way to get back to a working system if there is an issue. The ability to quickly restore from an image has been a huge lifesaver. I've been in a hotel, the night before an important presentation at a client site, only to be stupid and allow a windows upgrade to run. And as luck would have it, this was the ONLY time a windows upgrade messed up my system...total FUBAR. I restored from an image I made before my travel, did NOT let Windows Update run, and was up and running in an hour or so. Similarly, if I have a game coming up, and an update is released, I'll take an image before upgrading, so I can quickly roll back my system if needed.

(2) Work-product backups. You could use periodic, incremental images for this. Acronis, Shadow Protect and other imaging programs advertise themselves as full backup solutions. But, in my experience, this is overkill.

First, you need the storage, which means if you don't have a large drive with lots of unused space, you need an external drive for your images. I found that when I was using image software for backing up data, I often didn't back up because I would forget or not want to pack the external USB drive or would forget to connect it and or forgot to leave my laptop on at night in the hotel or forget to put it back in the docking station at home. 2BrightSparks has a good read about the issues with using imaging as you only backup solution here: http://www.2brightsparks.com/resources/articles/disk-imaging-is-not-a-total-backup-solution.html

Second, if you just want to get one file you lost, say an old pre-upgrade version of a *.realm file for RW, you need to mount the image and drill through the file directories to get it. If that image is on external media, you need that media with you. A lot of my work is now in systems that back up online, such as Google Drive, Skydrive, EverNote, and RealmWorks, or I am working in web apps or remoting into a VM. But I still have local data and I do like to have control over backing up my critical data, so I run SpiderOak to securely backup select directories containing my user-created data.

SpiderOak keeps an unlimited number of revisions for the backed up files. I never have to worry about totally losing my RW's *.realm files. There are other similar online backup software. CrashPlan is good, esp. if you have a Mac. Rackspace's JunkDisk is good. And there are others. I personally like SpiderOak's zero-trust security model, but you may be less paranoid than I.

This may all sound complicated or a hassle, but really is simple. I do this with my family. First I teach them how to make a System Image Backup with windows 7, 8, or 10 (I use ShadowProtect for performance and features, but there is no need to buy image software if you have windows 7, 8, or 10). Then I install SpiderOak. SpiderOak's online backup works in the background and you never need to worry about it until you need to recover lost data.

 

[Exmortis]

One other tip:

NEVER update until after your game day. That gives 6 full working days for fixes.

I follow this rule with RW and HL, not because of issues, but because it is prudent. I see posts of people here updating day before or day of, not something you should do. Even though you have to run offline, once you do update you can sync up and so can your players.

Just a good idea, same as I do not update Windows just before a time when I need my computer(s). I never update any software when I need it most, but right after when there is time for issues to be solved. Now this example has taken longer than a week, but that is the first time, and it is bound to happen with such a complex product such as Realm Works.

 

[meek75]

Getting back to the original topic. I am still getting what seem to be randomly consistent crashes. Random, because I don't see a pattern in them. Today I had a crash when changing a linking priority to never and another crash when renaming a topic. Consistent, because these same crashes happen repeatedly once I discover them.

 

[MNBlockHead]

Server updates are being made today, let hope those address your issues.

 

[MNBlockHead]

@Exmortis. Good tip, but that depends on how often you play, I suppose. Even if only once a week, you could update on Sunday, the day after your Saturday game day and run into an issue that take more than a week to address. If it is critical to you, you just have to be able to quickly roll things back. Either by restoring from an image or keeping a version of the older software saved somewhere.

 

[rob]

@meek75: If you could please send us your database, that would be immensely helpful. If you can reliably reproduce the bugs, that's a huge part of problem solved. We often find it incredibly difficult to reproduce crashes, because we don't have the same data on our end. The bugs are often due to special combinations of data.

@MNBlockHead: The server updates today won't be fixing crash bugs like @meek75 is describing. They will hopefully help out a few users who are encountering persistent failures trying to sync.

 

[Ermintrude]

I have the same problem as Meek75 - some things crash, and when they do they crash every time. I'll happily send my database - my backup is 98 meg though. Is there any way to export a single Realm?

 

[Parody]

I have the same problem as Meek75 - some things crash, and when they do they crash every time. I'll happily send my database - my backup is 98 meg though. Is there any way to export a single Realm?

Nope. It's probably easiest to upload your master.realm file to a personal file storage service (like Dropbox or OneDrive) and give LWD a sharing link to it.

 

[Vargr]

If RW puts out an update that crashes my realm for a week I end up having to cancel a session and 5 people get very irritated with me. If this happens again I could see my group saying "Dude, drop RW and just prep like you used to."

I am always surprised when players get upset because the GM has to cancel or get snippity about what tools the GM uses when he runs his game.

The GM invites the players to his world, the GM does all the work before, during and after a session; the players just show up and enjoy.

The players ought to be thankful for the efforts the GM are willing to make and do whatever they can to help the game and the social meeting to move forward.

Players not realizing this are not worth playing with, IMNSHO.

(I realize that the above might not be what you meant by "get irritated with me", but I hear surprisingly often about demanding and ungrateful players and GMs accepting it).

 

[Parody]

As a player, I often spend time (sometimes considerable time) working on the game, whether the mechanics of my character, planning for future interaction in the game, or working things out with others outside of the game. Not all games are "the players just show up and enjoy".

Also as a player, I'm making a spot in my schedule for the game, committing time I could be using for other activities. If that time was being wasted by what appears to be a completely avoidable situation (either using more stable tools or waiting to update until the update is proven), then I would feel irritated, especially if the same tool had multiple problems in multiple different ways. Enough irritation means I look for another group or activity.

We're all human and things come up. No big deal. It's when it becomes a pattern that we consider looking for another solution or stop playing with that person/group/tool altogether.

 

[Viking2054]

I am always surprised when players get upset because the GM has to cancel or get snippity about what tools the GM uses when he runs his game.

It has been my experience that players that are not also GM's don't understand or care about the amount of time or work put into a game. They want their game time and they expect the GM to make it fun for them.

Now, not everyone is like that. In the 25+ years I've been playing, I've gamed with the ungrateful, the whiners, the destroyers, the clueless, and the loathsome sons of (well I won't say that word here). I've also in those years found two groups of guys and gals I truly enjoyed playing with. One of those groups was made up of mostly enlisted Navy personel that were stationed near where I live and I lost a great group when they were shipped off to different bases. The second group has a solid core of GM's (3 of us) with one other that runs a game (a module usually) twice a decade while the others mostly just play. Of course the second group, my current group, also isn't perfect because one of the non-GM persons is a habitual whiner to one of the GM's and he's run a grand total of 1 game in the 15 to 20 years he's been gaming with the group.

By the way, 75% of the game cancellations in my group isn't by any of the GM's, but because the whiner won't man up and tell his wife that we would like to game in two weeks (two Saturday's a month). So his wife, who seems to hate the hobby, does everything in her power to make sure he never has a free weekend.

Anyway, as a GM, I've long since given up on the whiners for the most part and just tell them to man up and run the next game. That usually shuts them up if they've even once prepared to run a game.

 

[MNBlockHead]

I guess I'm lucky with my players. But also, I would not put the DM on throne. In a group of mature players, the DM should be given the same latitude as the players. Life gets in the way. But the DM shouldn't have more latitude just because it is DM's world.

If I were having constant issues with technology, I would expect my players to call me out on it. Who wants to spend their time watching their DM troubleshooting software and electronics.

As a DM, I rely on on my players more than they rely on me. It is much easier for them to find other games to play in than it is for me to find a good group of regular players. That may not be the case everywhere, but it is the case in the area where I live. Without players, I'm just building a world and writing stories, which is fun, but every DM hopes to run players through his or her creation.

Of course, at some point you may determine that a player's vision for the game doesn't match the DM's and it may make sense for them to part ways.

 

[Viking2054]

The problem where I live is that the only surviving gaming stores are 45+ miles away. The best of them has a nice big gaming room, but they schedule open RPG night once every other month (at least as an advertised via social media event). Although I have met a lot of nice people and good gamers, I've met 5 times as many twerps that need a good slap to the back of the head from NCIS Agent Gibbs.