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meek75
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Old December 11th, 2014, 05:21 AM
OK, I think this may have already been suggested, but I can't find it. I would really love to be able to have the exact same entry show up in multiple hierarchies. For example, the game I am running has a large cast of characters and lots of mini-plots for PCs to uncover and get evolved in during play. It would be great of I could have "King Louis" (for example) be in the main characters list, this is where I might look for him if I need to find him unexpectedly, and he should also be listed in a cast list for any of the plots he is a part of. I know I can list him as a "participant" in a scene and then auto link to the main entry, but I am a visual person and would like to see him in a hierarchy. We already have something like this now with the way aliases are displayed. This is not huge deal, but it would be nice.
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AEIOU
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Old December 11th, 2014, 11:29 AM
I'm a visual person too. The nesting system is brilliant but it only works for things that are static -- mountains, inns, kingdoms -- not things that may migrate or have multiple allegiances. It would be nice to recapture that nesting for use everywhere.

Black text for a main entry
Gray text for an alias
Orange text for a clone

If you try to open the orange link, it automatically opens the main entry. One entry to rule them all.

The only issue here is how it presents in the player view. I'd recommend that the container/hierarchy in which you place a clone is NOT visible to players. This would allow us to create nesting without fear of how it presents.
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rob
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Old December 11th, 2014, 06:08 PM
And then how do we handle all the children of the topics that appear in multiple places? Do we replicate everything every time? That will quickly become unwieldy and a significant performance concern - especially once we have web-based access. This is readily handled for aliases because an alias is not the "true" topic. But if the "true" topic actually lives in multiple places, now what do we do?

The primary reasons for only having a single container are to (a) keep everything simple AND (b) avoid some complex technical issues that crop up.

The solution for having things appear in multiple places is to leverage relationships. Then it's easy to find what you want visually via either a Relationship View or a Link Web view. In many cases, the Link Web view is better for visual navigation IMO.

Do relationships not cut it for some reason? If so, what are the problems you're experiencing with relationships for this purpose?
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AEIOU
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Old December 11th, 2014, 10:56 PM
I just come up with dumb ideas. You're the one with the brains.

The way I envisioned it was one true topic with visible links that could be dropped into other containers. You can't edit those link topics as clicking them leads you back to the true topic. You could also add them to the Content Links section or as a relationship.

I must admit that relationships have grown on me and I find the links section in the right sidebar invaluable. But they still aren't as instantly recognizable as the container hierarchies and are only sorted alphabetical whereas often I'd prefer sorting by relationship type. Being able to have a central cast topic for an NPC as well as a shadow copy in each plot someone is involved in would be useful. For now I add a stat block and a text link back to the NPC but it's definitely not obvious at a glance and impossible unless you actually open the topic where the stat block is contained whereas placing a shadow copy of the NPC into the room container would be much easier to find out where someone is at.

But while relationships have grown on me, I'm really not keen on the relationship view (that button next to Edit). Too many clicks and no formatting options makes looking at a town or a villain or a plot difficult due to the number of objects that they are related to. There no way to control font, spacing, groupings, friend/adversary, affiliations, etc. Pick vertical or horizontal and scroll around....

What frustrates me the most though is how often I see people stuff all their NPCs in a container for a group or town and then get told that they're not doing it right and they need to go watch a video or read a manual. Relationships aren't intuitive while containers are. Why? And how do you make them just as useful?
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Farling
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Old December 11th, 2014, 11:52 PM
Perhaps allowing more than one container hierarchy to be created, so that you can switch between the container hierarchies (and you can choose which hierarchies to share with the players).

The relationship views are a little unwieldy to easily view the many social groups (secret societies) in which the NPCs are members, or the hierarchy of social groups (secret society cells).
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Greebo
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
And then how do we handle all the children of the topics that appear in multiple places? Do we replicate everything every time? That will quickly become unwieldy and a significant performance concern - especially once we have web-based access. This is readily handled for aliases because an alias is not the "true" topic. But if the "true" topic actually lives in multiple places, now what do we do?

The primary reasons for only having a single container are to (a) keep everything simple AND (b) avoid some complex technical issues that crop up.

The solution for having things appear in multiple places is to leverage relationships. Then it's easy to find what you want visually via either a Relationship View or a Link Web view. In many cases, the Link Web view is better for visual navigation IMO.

Do relationships not cut it for some reason? If so, what are the problems you're experiencing with relationships for this purpose?
To me, containers and relationships are two distinct things. A relationship anchors a topic in a complex net of, well, relations. Especially with topics belonging completely to other containers. Like the rivalry between two neighboring cities belonging to two different realms. Or the love between the members of to feuding houses.

To me, a container could and does indicate two different sets of relationships. Primarily it is a hierarchical type of belonging, like a fiefdom belonging to a realm or a mountain situated in a specific area, or a member of a familiy / group / order.
But it could also signify a temporal and / or lokal sense of belonging. So I would like to be able to put e.g. an important person in the container group of city he/she currently lives in. Or in a place he/she visits often.


How about the option to copy an alias (and just the alias) into a different container? This would allow us to drop single topics into different containers without moving the topic (and its contained topics) itself.


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Greebo
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:28 AM
Somewhat along the lines of this proposal from the current discussion on best practise regarding multiple containers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HippyCraig View Post
There is a feature in a PIM software that I use, Ultra Recall from Kinook. It has an interesting way of handling the same document under multiple containers. I create a linked item in the other locations and its just basically a pointer back to the one article, so when its updated all the linked items point to article regardless of which link updates it. Might be worth looking at how they do it and it would make this software that much better for it.
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=56558


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Last edited by Greebo; September 21st, 2016 at 12:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Farling
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Old September 21st, 2016, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
To me, a container could and does indicate two different sets of relationships. Primarily it is a hierarchical type of belonging, like a fiefdom belonging to a realm or a mountain situated in a specific area, or a member of a familiy / group / order.
But it could also signify a temporal and / or lokal sense of belonging. So I would like to be able to put e.g. an important person in the container group of city he/she currently lives in. Or in a place he/she visits often.
In the early days of RW, it was suggested that the container hierarchy should be used for "permanent" associations; with everything else being handled by the various types of relationships links that RW provides.
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Greebo
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Old September 21st, 2016, 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
In the early days of RW, it was suggested that the container hierarchy should be used for "permanent" associations; with everything else being handled by the various types of relationships links that RW provides.
That is more or less how I use it.

But imho the container hierarchy is that more visible than relationships. Therefore placing an alias into a different container could by very useful during first glances while preparing or recapitulating. At least my players would profit from it.


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the_redbeard
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Old September 30th, 2016, 01:01 AM
You don't want a "duplicate" for all the technical reasons that are discussed above.

But why not a 'shortcut' (in linux file systems weren't they called links?) which would still appear in the container in the navigation pane?

To me, the other relationships handle this already, but I can see why it would be helpful.

If I were you with the present RW, I'd make a topic called "participants" and list their names there. Heck, you could make one revealed topic "known participants" and then another, unrevealed topic for "hidden participants".
This still wouldn't place the name in the container, but may be more of a readily available cue for you.
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