Now that dungeonscape is dead

Any idea if Herolab will be able to add DnD 5e to the line up?


"October 30, 2014

Greetings friends,

Today, we have news that is both sobering and hopeful. Wizards of the Coast and Trapdoor Technologies will no longer be working together to develop DungeonScape for Fifth Edition D&D, and we will not be releasing the product in its current form. The beta program on all platforms will be shutting down at noon (MST) on Friday, October 31.

Although we can’t reveal all of the details regarding the future of DungeonScape, we are happy to say that there is indeed a future—so fear not!

This project, 100% internally funded, conceptualized, and built by our talented team at Trapdoor, has been a labor of love from the very beginning. We set out to change the way RPGs are played at the table—making our game night more about enjoying the adventure than searching for rules. We still hold true to that quest. We believe that our Story Machine™ is a powerful tool for converting information into something more useful and rich.

We’re working hard to solidify the details of what’s next for DungeonScape, and we’ll share that information with you when it’s appropriate.

Until then, please continue to follow us on Twitter and Facebook. We’ll do our very best to answer any questions you have through social media or email.

Long live the adventure.

Love,

The Trapdoor Technologies Team"

Southern Man said:

Any idea if Herolab will be able to add DnD 5e to the line up?

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The missing licence is still the issue, DungeonScape or no DungeonScape. But I also hope that the reason might be a plan for non-exclusive licencing.
I really hope they have positive news soon.

Asides from any decisions from WotC I am continueing working on the DnD 5e support for Hero Lab, but I can only release it if they make a licence which allows to do so (currently finishing the last missing feats - Magic Initiate was especially a pain to implement (being able to choose spells from other classes), but it works now ;-)

MagicSN

Oh man Magic that's awesome I really hope license details are put forth or someone out there is reaching out even today. I love hero lab 4e... and pathfinder... and pretty much every system i bought. This is my go to character gen and encounter builder!

I am running out of fingers to cross, lets see what happens now.

Southern Man said:

Any idea if Herolab will be able to add DnD 5e to the line up?


"[DungeonScape Press Release]"

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I had a feeling I'd wake up to a post like this. Unfortunately, the situation has remained the same for us here at Lone Wolf. We would still need a license with Wizards to do anything with Hero Lab. We're still waiting to see if an OGL type license appears, but until additional news appears on that front, there's nothing we can do.

liz said:

I had a feeling I'd wake up to a post like this. Unfortunately, the situation has remained the same for us here at Lone Wolf. We would still need a license with Wizards to do anything with Hero Lab. We're still waiting to see if an OGL type license appears, but until additional news appears on that front, there's nothing we can do.

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Of course you found a post like this, we love our Hero Lab.

I am curious though, do you have to wait for them or can you reach out to them to seek approval? I ask because I know some companies don't allow or want requests and some are more open to the 3rd party enquiry.

Any one can approach WOTC and ask for a license to do X. X being plush, software, board games, whatever. If there is a license already in play they will let you know otherwise you will be given a price to get the license for a certain number of years. If they are interested in working with you the price might be reasonable. Often WOTC gives you a price so high that you would never be able to recover your costs. That's their way of saying get lost.

If you wait and they offer an OGL then it is free and you can move foward at no charge

@Tekwych, there's a LOT more to it than it sounds from your description. We have been in discussions with Wizards regarding different licenses for almost a decade, not to mention all the other companies we have licenses in place with. Negotiating something is often a lengthy and arduous process, with lots of niggly details that have to worked through - it is in no way as cut-and-dried simple as it sounds from your description.

Your description is technically correct, but it omits critical information that could be misleading to others that lack familiarity with how licensing negotiations actually unfold.

Edit: I felt that it was important for users lacking experience in licensing to understand there's typically a lot more to the process. Sometimes, it's as simple as you've outlined, but often it's a lot more involved.

rob said:

@Tekwych, there's a LOT more to it than it sounds from your description. We have been in discussions with Wizards regarding different licenses for almost a decade, not to mention all the other companies we have licenses in place with. Negotiating something is often a lengthy and arduous process, with lots of niggly details that have to worked through - it is in no way as cut-and-dried simple as it sounds from your description.

Your description is technically correct, but it omits critical information that could be misleading to others that lack familiarity with how licensing negotiations actually unfold.

Edit: I felt that it was important for users lacking experience in licensing to understand there's typically a lot more to the process. Sometimes, it's as simple as you've outlined, but often it's a lot more involved.

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I think what Rob is saying is that there are two dwarven lawyers, one on each side representing one company and together they have to forge and hammer out the license. These negotiations can involve a lot of back and forth hammering until a license emerges from the foundry that all parties involved can agree to. In other words, it's not as simple as just walking up to WotC HQ, knocking on Mike Mearls' door and asking him for a license.

I'd keep pestering WotC on their forums and twitter though. If you really want hero lab for 5e you need to generate that buzz...

RavenX said:

I'd keep pestering WotC on their forums and twitter though. If you really want hero lab for 5e you need to generate that buzz...

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I have been doing that, along with a couple of others with the mention on Lone Wolf and how they understand RPGs with digital tools.

Crossing my fingers!

EK

rob said:

@Tekwych, there's a LOT more to it than it sounds from your description.

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You are right. I was doing the short form and letting a bit of personal opinion slip in. You and Raven offer additional information that helps inform those that haven't had hers of their lives drained away by followers of the legal gods.
I still hold that WOTC is a backwards, close minded, legal happy lot with an inability or unwillingness to listen to their constituents or their piers (not that they believe they have any piers). Part of that mindset comes from their parent company (i've felt with them in the toy industry for years) but I think it roots have been there long before.

The comic industry (publishers and retailers) just had a great conference in NYC about how they must change the way the industry markets itself to a new, wider digital audience. The gaming industry has been more open minded in some ways but is falling into some of the same traps. Change must happen to meet the demands of your consumers or you will find yourself losing market share.

Tekwych said:

Change must happen to meet the demands of your consumers or you will find yourself losing market share.

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With the failure of 4e compared to the success of Pathfinder, do they really not still get it? What more do they need, failure of 5e?

As a lover of all things LWD I seriously hope for you all WotC comes around and signs up Rob the team here to bring HeroLab to 5e. But I suspect WotC wants a bigger portion of the dollar here and just doesn't want to license this revenue stream to another company.

HeroLab coupled with Realm Works has such untold and untapped future potential, sad 5e players may get left out in the cold.

Exmortis said:

With the failure of 4e compared to the success of Pathfinder, do they really not still get it? What more do they need, failure of 5e?

As a lover of all things LWD I seriously hope for you all WotC comes around and signs up Rob the team here to bring HeroLab to 5e. But I suspect WotC wants a bigger portion of the dollar here and just doesn't want to license this revenue stream to another company.

HeroLab coupled with Realm Works has such untold and untapped future potential, sad 5e players may get left out in the cold.

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Yes they do, because they haven't really learned their lesson. Pathfinder is here to stay. It's not going to disappear because WotC releases another "basic" version of D&D. Where WotC has made its mistake is trying to get back to the basic version of the game rather than focusing on the advanced elements. AD&D always had stronger sales than basic in TSR's days. Until Mike Mearls wakes up and realizes that he's going to find his sales aren't going to be competitive with Pathfinder's success. It also doesn't help that Jason Buhlman has a bit of creative genius and ingenuity in him, he has taken something old and turned it into something new that is fun to play. I had high hopes for 5e when Monte Cook was brought back and those were dashed when he left for "creative differences". After getting the 5e monster manual and looking through it I was rather disappointed enough to shelve it. I will take things I like out of 5 and work them into Pathfinder most likely.

And I seriously doubt WotC will leave 5e players out in the cold either. Dungeonscape being dead in the water does at least create potential energy in the direction of licensing, and an OGL could be in the works that we don't know about. Like I said, you just have to get enough people making a buzz about it to get them to send out the dwarf lawyer who hammers the licenses out. To be honest I wouldn't have ran 4e after the character builder went online only if it hadn't been for Hero Lab. The WotC downloadable builder was fine, it worked without crashing, and it had what I needed. Moving to online only and microsoft silverlight burned them severely. I prefer offline character builders simply for the fact I have a portable printer and can just print off sheets without having to be online. If the internet goes down you're pretty much hosed with an online builder.

Also look at the marketing of the two systems. Pathfinder has a much better handle on today's reality. They are sitting back and allowing WOTC to use the D&D name and Mass Media (who know nothing about the industry or its players) to bring new and lapsed players to the market. Then, once these players have had a few months to find their wants and needs in an RPG, Pathfinder will push their product. They will use substantially less money and effort to gain far more success then WOTC.

I wouldn't say marketing has much to do with it, historically speaking, AD&D always had stronger sales and a bigger fan base because of its complexity and character options. It was also very easy to expand upon those options. 3.5 was quite the popular edition because it took AD&D and refined it, smoothing out the edges. What came out of WotC after has been a throwback to basic, which is the wrong way to go if you're trying to win back customers from Paizo. Jason Buhlman doesn't have to do much, gamers have friends, we talk, we push the products we love, we're our own marketing mechanism when we like something. I can understand wanting to get new gamers because that's more money, but WotC shouldn't alienate the existing fanbase either. This is a problem some of the larger companies have. Games Workshop does the same kind of marketing, always focusing on the new players over existing fans. It's why 40k fluctuates in popularity based on edition of the game... 3rd was a nice refinement of the rules, 4th did a nice job, then came 5th which was probably the most unloved edition of 40k, then 6th won me back, but 7th I haven't even looked at... I'm still trying to collect my codices for armies for 6th.

WotC will figure it out, but probably not while Mike Mearls is their lead developer. Monte Cook having ditched the effort was what soured it for me. I knew at that point I probably wasn't going to be happy about 5e. And I'm not. It's not horrible, but I am not likely to run it either. I'll just scavenge the books for material to build new pathfinder datafiles from.

You're not the first person I've heard say something to the effect of "I'm not going to play it, but I bought the books anyway." I truly don't get that mentality. WotC doesn't get paid based on the number of times you play, they get paid by book sales. You are paying to keep afloat a system you don't like by a company who you don't agree with...

I have had a nagging desire to pick up the books as well. Cant explain it as I don't play D&D and haven't since AD&D in the 80s. My FLGS has let me thumb through the books so I'm sated at the moment

Here is how well WOTC plays with others

Mystic Lemur said:

You're not the first person I've heard say something to the effect of "I'm not going to play it, but I bought the books anyway." I truly don't get that mentality. WotC doesn't get paid based on the number of times you play, they get paid by book sales. You are paying to keep afloat a system you don't like by a company who you don't agree with...

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I wanted to give it a chance. And I haven't bought all of the books they've released. My original intention was this, purchase the core books, read them, and then decide from there. Playtest materials are not always indicative of final product. Would you buy a car without test driving it? I would hope not. One of the reasons I like hero lab is that they give us a Demo Mode. You can try before you buy. If you don't like it, you also have a refund option so you don't get buyer's remorse.

And before I go into a really long rant on this, let me state something to you that you seem to be forgetting: WotC doesn't need D&D to stay afloat. They have enough successful card game franchises out there right now that they can afford losses on D&D and survive for years to come. Magic the Gathering is still quite popular and has sold well worldwide since its debut and continues to do so. When Hasbro purchased WotC it wasn't for D&D, it was for Pokemon the card game. They were after the card franchise which brought in a lot of money. Book sale revenue is not something that keeps them afloat, never has been, never will be. They could drop D&D completely and thrive without it just based on Collectable Card Game sales.

Before I invest money into a game system I get the core books for it and see what I feel about it. If I don't like it I can resell via ebay, cut my losses and make some money back or go to the comic shop and trade them in for credit toward something else. It's not a big deal to me.

I don't have to pay money to test drive a car.

Not trying to make anyone rant about anything, and I'm quite well aware that cardfloppers keep WotC afloat. None of that invalidates my frustration with people spending money on a product they might not like from a company they don't like "just to try it out."

Mystic Lemur said:

I don't have to pay money to test drive a car.

Not trying to make anyone rant about anything, and I'm quite well aware that cardfloppers keep WotC afloat. None of that invalidates my frustration with people spending money on a product they might not like from a company they don't like "just to try it out."

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I never said I was paying full MSRP for them either...

I'm not feeling it was a total waste of money but I'm also glad I didn't pay full price. The artwork is nice, and its made converting some of the 4th edition material to Pathfinder easier for me. I also do like some of their ideas, just not all of them. I'm not going to be moving away from Pathfinder that is for sure. The adventure modules however I do find a bit of use for as they don't require much work to convert to PF campaigns so I may keep getting the adventure books for that purpose.