Offline only realms

This is not necessarily something I am looking for since the cloud feature is something I was keenly interested in (and KSed for at a level I can never EVER tell my wife about so I could get that very feature at the top tier), but I think there are some folks out there who might take a closer look at RW if there was an option to create a local-only realm (i.e., a realm that has no interaction ever with the cloud server).

It seems to me, based on what I've read, that the need to tickle the cloud server at realm creation is so the realm can say "howdy" to the cloud service in case it ever gets synced later. But, if there were an option that explicitly said "no, I never want this realm synced and am fully aware that it CAN never be synced" -- I think that might appeal to some folk uninterested in the cloud service.

I'm thinking here of how in Evernote you can create local Notebooks that don't sync to your cloud account, and can never be changed to do so.

And, of course, there will be some people who start out with it being a local only realm and then decide later they do want to sync it to the cloud.... And now they cannot and get angry at us for not providing any way of doing it. Even with severe warnings and such.

So with Evernote, does it allow you to change a local notebook to be cloud syncable?

A part of Realm Works we are trying to do is make sure people can't shoot themselves in the foot.... Or at least can't do it without a lot effort. There is a wide audience we are intending Realm Works to cater to and they may have vastly different ways of understanding things such that they wouldn't realize all of the ramifications of their actions. So we attempt to make sure things are not irreversible, when possible. (Of course, realm deletion is going to be one of those irreversible operations....)

davidp said:

So with Evernote, does it allow you to change a local notebook to be cloud syncable?

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Yeah, like I said, I don't really have a dog in this fight -- eagerly awaiting cloud sharing here. I mean, you'll always have the nerdrage from some quarter, but options are always good.

With the Evernote local-only option you cannot change the notebook to syncable once you create it local only. It allows you to use Evernote without, for instance, eating up your monthly bandwidth allotment.

You get this option on notebook creation:



Very clear that you can have a syncable notebook or a purely local one, but once you choose, that's it.

In my case, I use a local-only notebook to store mapping symbols -- I can tag them, search them, annotate them, etc and do everything I like Evernote to do, but like I don't need to access them anywhere else except on the laptop I use to make maps (i.e., not my iPad or my phone). Also, I don't have to use up my 1G monthly bandwidth limit, which all those image files would make short work of.

I would like to see not necessarily a realm that can never be synced to the cloud, but an option of which realms to sync, with every realm being optionally sync-able.

Mind you, I say this in ignorance of what's to come with the different tiers of cloud storage, but hypothetically, let's say I'm in a situation where my data won't all fit in my cloud. Then I can manage my space. I can make Realms A, B and C offline only, and keep only Realms X, Y and Z in the cloud. Maybe next week, I'll want Realms A, X and Y offline and realms B, C and Z in the cloud.

It's a slightly different request in that I don't want a realm that can never ever ever by synced to the cloud, but I would like to be able to manage what I keep in the cloud so I can manage my cloud storage without limiting the number of realms I can create and manage.

Does that sound more reasonable?

I like EightBitz's request, but i do imagine there might be a delay in removing something from the cloud. database deletes can be expensive, and we wouldnt want to hinder all users by that. Maybe after "removing" something from the cloud, some form of acceptable time delay before its local only (possibly even up to 24 hours?)

It would still allow for us to manage our space, but also (hopefully) not hinder the server too much.

I think it would also mean though, that when we first create a realm, we still have to register its possibility of being in the cloud, as we do now. (Which i dont think is a big deal to have that as a requirement, from a user standpoint)

A "Local Only" realm is just a realm that you never sync. The only interaction with the server is to reserve a spot for the realm on the off chance that you might someday change your mind. You never again have to connect your computer to the internet. If you are the kind of person that a single, one-time, connection is too onerous, maybe this just isn't the right product for you. LWD has bent over backwards to make this product accessible off-line, going as far as they can without compromising your data integrity. Again, if a one-time connection is too much to bear, just look elsewhere. This feature isn't needed in Realm Works.

tl;dr
Consider this a -1 for this feature request.

For what it's worth, had I understood at the time I supported the Kickstarter project that Realm Works would not be a normal file-based system and would require server connections to create and delete databases I likely would not have supported the project.

Unfortunately, I assumed it would work much like Hero Lab, except with a cloud storage and marketplace feature replacing us putting the data files we've created on our own websites to share them.

I would like to see the Realm Works team change their minds and add the ability to act locally like most other applications: open a file, work on it, save it wherever I want, give it to anyone I'd like, delete it when I'm done with it. However, they already chose this path where the online marketplace is the most important feature. I don't see any reason for them to change that decision now.

To be fair, I went back and looked at the Kickstarter. Although it doesn't specifically say you need access to create realms, it does say this:

Realm Works is not a web application and does not require a continuous internet connection for use. However, initial setup and all server interactions (e.g. cloud access) do require an internet connection when utilized. The product is intentionally fully usable offline to enable its use in venues lacking reliable, high-performance internet connections.

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Emphasis mine. They call out that all server interactions will require an internet connection (well, I mean, duh). They list cloud access as an example (e.g.) of one such interaction. The decision was later made to require a server interaction when the realm is first created in order to save time and trouble later, if the user decides they want to sync a created realm months or years down the line.

I think LWD was incredibly open and honest about what this product would require, and I still think the complaints/concerns otherwise are unjustified.

If you want to fully use the product off-line, there is nothing stopping you from using the initial internet connection (that you must do to activate the product) to also create three or four (or a dozen) empty realms. If you create all the realms you'll ever need, the computer need never see the light of the internet again. How many computers do you have that never access the net? Are they your primary game prep computers?

Something else to consider: How else would the ability for Players to access the data independently work? Web-based or dedicated client-based, independent access relies on the Realm being sync'd to the cloud. If you use RealmWorks as a specialized personal notebook, that's not a concern, but the primary audience is gaming groups.

Even the tentative suggested idea of having the GM's PC act as a web server requires some amount of networking, even if only local.

Although I am clad the cloud access is there, and I jumped into this kickstarter because of it. I do want to add my voice to the idea of EigthBitz.

But it is only needed if the cloud access is limited to a number of realms (or size). In that case I want to be able to tell Realmworks which ones should be synced and which ones not.
In that case I also want to be able to remove a previously synced realm if I need the space. for instance I used a realm A which I am currently not using anymore, now I need my players be able to access realm B.

The LWD team was always upfront that this would not be a file based system. That it was going to be a database system. Very early on in the kickstarter, questions were asked about Dropbox, and those questions were answered right away.

Personally I have never been happy about the cloud philosophy (in any computer venue).

In the cloud I don't know where the data is stored, I don't control the hardware, I don't know what laws regulate the data (the server might be in USA or Zaire, legal-wise both foreign countries for me) and other people/entities have full control of my data (is it even my data if I don't have full control of it? Possession is nine-tenths of the law as you might know).

Just because I sound paranoid, does not mean I am not right.

Yet, even with these misgivings I feel that the solution provided by RW is one I can live with.

• I need to be online only once for creating a realm.
• I don't need to store any data in the cloud (apart from an empty database and its name (which I can change locally later).
• I can make backups of the realm (database) and store that file wherever I want
• I can later take my backup and load the realm into RW again without involving the cloud (not tested yet)
• I can take the backup and transfer it to another computer (with RW installed) and load the realm (not fully tested yet).

Oddly enough, for exactly these reasons I will be using the cloud. Because I can opt out if I want to or if I go somewhere with no internet connection (which happens often enough).


For those of you who want to be cloud-free I believe you can do so - except for the initial creation of a new realm.


All things considered, I think LWD has found a very attractive solution, cartering to many needs and concerns.

Vargr said:

• I can take the backup and transfer it to another computer (with RW installed) and load the realm (not fully tested yet).

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If you're doing this on a shared computer, don't forget that this replaces the database on the other computer. Make sure the other user has backed up their database before your import yours.

EightBitz said:

I would like to see not necessarily a realm that can never be synced to the cloud, but an option of which realms to sync, with every realm being optionally sync-able.

Mind you, I say this in ignorance of what's to come with the different tiers of cloud storage, but hypothetically, let's say I'm in a situation where my data won't all fit in my cloud. Then I can manage my space. I can make Realms A, B and C offline only, and keep only Realms X, Y and Z in the cloud. Maybe next week, I'll want Realms A, X and Y offline and realms B, C and Z in the cloud.

It's a slightly different request in that I don't want a realm that can never ever ever by synced to the cloud, but I would like to be able to manage what I keep in the cloud so I can manage my cloud storage without limiting the number of realms I can create and manage.

Does that sound more reasonable?

Click to expand...

Moving realms in and out of the cloud is something we've mapped out, but certainly not at the level of frequency you've suggested above. Games will end and go on hiatus. GMs will prep for games that don't start for months. So GMs will need the ability to delay the start of cloud syncing if they want, which is something we already provide. GMs will also want to "archive" a realm, taking it out of the database.

This gets more complicated, since the server maintains lots of important information that is NOT brought down to the client. If we brought it down to the client for archiving by the user, then it becomes available for hacking, and we can't allow that. So we need some way to "archive" a realm out of the database and into cheaper storage, but still be maintained on the server so that it can be retrieved from the archive.

We've thought through various aspects of the problem, but we don't have a concrete solution nailed down yet. That's something we'll be looking to tackle after our biggest priorities are behind us. And it will definitely entail a meaningful amount of work to implement.

One thing about a local-only realm is that you probably wouldn't get many improvements from LWD.

All those changes and tweaks they do with the structure based on our feedback would never happen.

I think that LWD has done a fine enough job making this for everyone. I also think, in spite of some rather monumental efforts to overcome it, there are still substantial misconceptions in the processes that help drive the product.

I think efforts should be made to not say 'the cloud' when referring to synching with a server for realm activation or updates because the functionality of that is radically different than contacting The Cloud to sync your realm or for your players to connect their clients.