Middle ground for Allies

[shaggai]

I'm working on the Witch Hunter files for the AB3_40k files and wanted to see if there was a middle ground for the usage of allies.

The nice way would be to have the allies selected using the Ally button, and the selecting allies from that screen. However in the case of the witch hunters, only certain units can be taken. In order to accomplish this properly, the ally file would have to have ruleset allowances or exclusions in their member tab. This means alot of extra modification to that other list, not to mention another thing to keep track of for all the maintainers.

The current way that it's handled at the moment is through the use of an extension file. This does handle the situation, but has the ally units showing in the general list instead of something selectable. So while it does work, it doesn't "look" good since if you do not want to use allies, they're there anyway for you to look at, cluttering up the view.

Is there someway that the allies can be selectable through the button like they are supposed to, but be handled though the extension file?

Thanks for any info.

[deathlynx]

Well, you could set up a ruleset for IG ally and another for SM ally...set them as mutually exclusive (well, they are) and then give the units you already have an exclusion that makes them visible only when the ruleset is selected...That way you can give them the Witch Hunter Tag (and DH and XH if/when it comes out) but not having them show up until asked for...

[harkan]

Have a look at the Chaos files for the Lost n the damned - they run in the same file, however the equivalent should be easy to do via the ext file. The rulesets allow for 'pure' LaTD, LaTD with CSM allies etc, with the additional units showing dependant on the ruleset via the membership tags

[shaggai]

I'll play around with some things and see what happens. You can sometimes work wonders using the "square peg, round hole & big hammer" method of coding

[rob]

I don't know what method is actually being used in the 40K files, but I
believe there ARE good middle ground solutions that I had suggested many
months ago on our Beta team forum. There may be a reason why these
approaches won't work, but I don't recall ever hearing one mentioned, so I
think they will work smoothly.

The first method is a very lightweight solution, but I think it will work
for the Witch Hunters. If not, consider the next one. This method requires
that you setup a separate set of race records for the Witch Hunters. Each
of these might be designated ids such as "wh_xxx", where the "xxx"
indicates the ally. Then you can have this race record explicitly define
the additional "race.xxx" tag that the allied race normally auto-defines.
By doing this, the selection of the allied race will enable all units for
that allied race at the race level. Then the current method with the
extension files for the various units will allow you to customize which
units are limited via their individial member expressions. The net result
of this technique is that you turn on the allied races very simply via the
ALLIES mechanism, and the current use of extension files keep everything
cleanly decoupled from a maintenance standpoint.

The second method requires the use of a simple, generalized change to all
blocks of units. This method was actually posted a few months back on this
group, so I've included the URL of the thread below:
http://support.wolflair.com/index.ph...ewtopic&t=4152

This thread will be found in the Army Builder support group. It is dated
January 31, 2005.

Hope this helps,
Rob

At 04:47 AM 5/29/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm working on the Witch Hunter files for the AB3_40k files and wanted to
>see if there was a middle ground for the usage of allies.
>
>The nice way would be to have the allies selected using the Ally button,
>and the selecting allies from that screen. However in the case of the
>witch hunters, only certain units can be taken. In order to accomplish
>this properly, the ally file would have to have ruleset allowances or
>exclusions in their member tab. This means alot of extra modification to
>that other list, not to mention another thing to keep track of for all the
>maintainers.
>
>The current way that it's handled at the moment is through the use of an
>extension file. This does handle the situation, but has the ally units
>showing in the general list instead of something selectable. So while it
>does work, it doesn't "look" good since if you do not want to use allies,
>they're there anyway for you to look at, cluttering up the view.
>
>Is there someway that the allies can be selectable through the button like
>they are supposed to, but be handled though the extension file?
>
>Thanks for any info.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (408) 927-9880
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

[shaggai]

OK, the solution that I did was to change the pointer in the extension file from roster.ohw (WH roster) - and refer it to a ruleset instead, either ruleset.oh_allyIG or ruleset.oh_allySM. I also placed in the main army roster selection screen check boxes to add either type, or none. This solved the problem in seeing them if you don't want to see them - just select them in or out as you wish.

However, i was wondering the exact reason I don't see them if I play another parent race which can take WH allies? Does the ally selection point to a specific roster, ruleset, or ignore all rulesets entirely - or can it be pointed to a specific ruleset (instead of a roster).

Because, the second part of what I was trying to achieve was to be able to split up the Witch hunters selection into a generic WH army (all units) or a tighter Sister of Battle ONLY force (using ruleset.SoB). In the main army selection screen I have tick boxes to make the selection, and it all seems to work the way I want - however, if I choose IG or SM and decide to take WH as allies, I can never get one of the elements to show, only the SoB elements seem to come through (or WH elements, depending on how I make the rulesets within the WH file show/hide themselves).

Would I have to be forced to make the army selection global (by taking off the roster.ohw in the context legality) and force everyone else to make that decision, especially if they can't even take WH allies? Or within the allies tab in the 40K def file can it point to a ruleset instead of a roster?

Thanks for any help.

PS. I might have to read up on that article you pointed to about the allow and the autotags. It might be easier to do the force split that way instead of rulesets if the current way I'm trying gets too impossible to do.

[rob]

Each ruleset auto-defines a specific "ruleset.xxx" tag. The same basic
principle holds for races, except that the core race auto-defines a
"roster.xxx" tag. If you want have something be dependent on a particular
race being selected as the core race for a roster, the tag expression needs
to be based on the "roster.xxx" tag for that race. This means that if you
create a Witch Hunter roster (of any kind), the global tag "roster.witch"
will be defined, corresponding to the "race.witch" tag for the race. [NOTE!
The use of "witch" is for example purposes here, as the actual tag will be
whatever you define.]

Using the approach you've taken, if you want to have units be restricted to
only appear for Witch Hunter roster, they should have "roster.witch" in
their "member" tagexpr. If you want to restrict units to only appear for
certain rulesets, then you need to include the appropriate tag templates
for those rulesets in the "member" tagexpr. All AB does is compare the
"member" tagexpr against the global tags that are currently defined for the
active roster, including both the "roster" tag and any "ruleset" tags.
Remember also that the "ruleset" tags may change based on user-selection of
rulesets.

The visible units are determined the exact same way for both allies and the
core units for a race. The only extra test for allies is whether the allied
race appears in the selectable list for a given roster. Units are treated
exactly the same for both. The problem you are encountering is that the
rulesets your units are dependent upon are not always being defined, so
that the units you want aren't always appearing. You can find out what
global tags are defined by just asking AB to show them to you (assuming you
have debugging support enabled).

What you need to devise is two basic things:
1. The set of rulesets and tags that will be used to control what can/can't
be used in each context.
2. The set of member tagexprs to properly control visibility based on the
defined ruleset tags.

The tags mechanism is incredibly flexible, so I can't think of a situation
where you would be "forced" into any type of restriction. You simply need
to map out the set of tags and tagexprs that you need, at which point
you'll be able to do just about anything you want.

Hope this helps,
Rob

At 01:51 AM 5/31/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>OK, the solution that I did was to change the pointer in the extension
>file from roster.ohw (WH roster) - and refer it to a ruleset instead,
>either ruleset.oh_allyIG or ruleset.oh_allySM. I also placed in the main
>army roster selection screen check boxes to add either type, or none. This
>solved the problem in seeing them if you don't want to see them - just
>select them in or out as you wish.
>
>However, i was wondering the exact reason I don't see them if I play
>another parent race which can take WH allies? Does the ally selection
>point to a specific roster, ruleset, or ignore all rulesets entirely - or
>can it be pointed to a specific ruleset (instead of a roster).
>
>Because, the second part of what I was trying to achieve was to be able to
>split up the Witch hunters selection into a generic WH army (all units) or
>a tighter Sister of Battle ONLY force (using ruleset.SoB). In the main
>army selection screen I have tick boxes to make the selection, and it all
>seems to work the way I want - however, if I choose IG or SM and decide to
>take WH as allies, I can never get one of the elements to show, only the
>SoB elements seem to come through (or WH elements, depending on how I make
>the rulesets within the WH file show/hide themselves).
>
>Would I have to be forced to make the army selection global (by taking off
>the roster.ohw in the context legality) and force everyone else to make
>that decision, especially if they can't even take WH allies? Or within the
>allies tab in the 40K def file can it point to a ruleset instead of a roster?
>
>Thanks for any help.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (408) 927-9880
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

[shaggai]

Got what I wanted done, finally. I wasn't too far off in the first place. I did get a lesson on the punctuation of AB3 of how picky it is when it comes to "| &" and where "()" fall around member rulesets.