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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mansfield" <steve@gametools.com> > But that aside, if they're such money-grubbing parasites, why do you continue > playing the game? > In a word: equity. The process of purchasing an army and painting it creates a certain amount of equity in your army. If you quit playing, then you lose this equity. SO, when the rules change or game abilities change from edition to edition only to sell more miniatures...people get angry. Unfortunately, a person's only choice is to stop playing (and lose their equity) or to continue playing, often "under protest." BUT, that one change is not the end of the story! There will be another, and another, or perhaps the army you've collected goes they way of the dodo (Squats and Chaos Dwarves come to mind) OR the army you've collected is split and suddenly the mummies you had can't be used alongside your vampires any more. Unfortunately, a person's only choice is to stop playing (and lose their equity) or to continue playing, often "under protest." As you can see, to continue creates EVEN MORE equity and harder to quit until one day...the final straw is reached and all that anger finally turns to hatred. I have started to look for rulesets that are "no equity loss" (NEL)...otherwise known as generic. The premise is that you can use ANY company's miniatures to play the game and fit them into ANY army you can develop. Historicals are a NEL option because if you hate Napoleon's Battles, maybe Volley & Bayonet is the thing, or maybe Grande Armee. In these cases the army is still viable for any rules. For Fanatasy and Sci Fi, I play NEL games like Fantasy Rules!, Shock Force, Stargrunt, Full Thrust. If the system has a "design your own..." section you're all set. Once a person knows there is a NEL option, suddenly the world is your oyster...in fact, you can continue to play GW games (if you want) knowing that you can always play the NEL game which would preserve your investment. Oh and many of the NEL games like Fanatasy Rules! have army builder files available. John E-mail & WM: jlmartin@wi.rr.com URL: http://home.wi.rr.com/jlmartin "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it." Robert E. Lee ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save Smiley. Help put Messenger back in the office. http://us.click.yahoo.com/4PqtEC/any...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#31 |
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I have been following this thread and will ask anyone who has been in this
hobby a long time to name a company older than Games Workshop. TSR is now owned by Wizards which turn is owned by Hasbro. Avalon Hill, SPI, Fasa and GDW are long gone. The question I have is: are we willing to put up with some "money-grubbing" tactics in order to ensure WH and 40K will be around in 20 years? Is paying an extra dollar per miniature worth having a high quality monthly magazine? Since GW can generate profits, they can conduct R&D and take risks on new games and concepts. Other game companies are waiting until they receive a certain number of orders to begin production, this can take a year or even longer. Personally, I don't really buy into the conspiracy theory of GW making models/armies extinct. These guys are gamers and they are continually tweaking and re-freshing their product lines. On the whole, I think that each release is better than the previous. I also agree with GW's request that all models be painted and of Citadel manufacture. WH and 40K are rich in atmosphere and background and playing with models consistent with that background is aesthetically appealing. I will agree that GW is a very aggressive company, just walk into a GW store and you will witness and some high-pressure sales tactics. I have also watched them wipe out distribution channels and bully retailers. I think you have to take the good with the bad. Overall, I have enjoyed their products since 1986 and still avidly play GW games today. -----Original Message----- From: VanMan4311@aol.com [mailto:VanMan4311@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 2:41 PM To: ab@support.wolflair.com Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder? In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tneva82@yahoo.com writes: > Wanting to stay in business is money-grubbing parasites? Maybe you > want them to go to bankrupt but I prefer for them to stay up and > continue the support the game I play. > There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business tactics. GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing the shareholders. This is why they are money-grubbing parasites. > Similary. Does WoTC allow cards not produced by them in their MTG > tournaments? > There is quite a difference between CCGs and Miniature wargames. They're generally sold in the same store but they aren't part of the miniature wargaming hobby. Not even close. Lets look at a similiar arguement. Long standing historical wargaming companies do not produce every type of Sherman out there, but even if they did, they would not stop you from bring a Sherman made by a different manufacturer, but same scale. Or an even more similar arguement: Every VOID tournament I've played in (which were not run by i-kore, but were supported by them) we've been able to have substitutions for miniatures, whether because it is OoP or not released yet or just really expensive. It generally costs you victory points, or you started out in the losers bracket, but you were allowed to play. Games Workshop has strived to create a reputation that it doesn't exactly care for the hobby it is a part of. And thus those of us who really do care for this hobby lash back. It's not nice, but were all adults here, able to keep it professional. Brad [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/M=249982.308...roupweb/S=1705 059080:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=556&l ineid=3083889?=egroupweb&pos=HM> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#32 |
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I think that this is the most cogent argument that I've heard in a long time.
I knew John from a long way back, and you could not have accused him of being a jerk, and you'd be mad to claim that he didn't love GW games. Me and him both date back to the days of the original Space Marine game and the Rogue Trader books. I've often referred to GW as "the lowest common denominator" of gaming. No matter where in the world you go you can usually rely on two things. 1) If you have a 40K, or even a WFB, army you'll be able to find opponants. 2) If you play a different minis game, even if you provide figs for both players, finding opponants is like pulling teeth. I think what may be biting GW in the ass now is that you can regain a certain amount of your equity in a way that was never available before. Until recently Ebaying your minis off just wasn't an option. Speaking of, has anyone attempted to create AB files for WarMachine yet? I'm trying to figure out how to create templates for the damage box system, but it may be something that's beyond the program. On Saturday 12 April 2003 10:07 am, John L. Martin wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Mansfield" <steve@gametools.com> > > > But that aside, if they're such money-grubbing parasites, why do you > > continue > > > playing the game? > > In a word: equity. The process of purchasing an army and painting it > creates a certain amount of equity in your army. If you quit playing, then > you lose this equity. > > SO, when the rules change or game abilities change from edition to edition > only to sell more miniatures...people get angry. Unfortunately, a person's > only choice is to stop playing (and lose their equity) or to continue > playing, often "under protest." > > BUT, that one change is not the end of the story! There will be another, > and another, or perhaps the army you've collected goes they way of the dodo > (Squats and Chaos Dwarves come to mind) OR the army you've collected is > split and suddenly the mummies you had can't be used alongside your > vampires any more. Unfortunately, a person's only choice is to stop > playing (and lose their equity) or to continue playing, often "under > protest." > > As you can see, to continue creates EVEN MORE equity and harder to quit > until one day...the final straw is reached and all that anger finally turns > to hatred. I have started to look for rulesets that are "no equity loss" > (NEL)...otherwise known as generic. The premise is that you can use ANY > company's miniatures to play the game and fit them into ANY army you can > develop. > > Historicals are a NEL option because if you hate Napoleon's Battles, maybe > Volley & Bayonet is the thing, or maybe Grande Armee. In these cases the > army is still viable for any rules. For Fanatasy and Sci Fi, I play NEL > games like Fantasy Rules!, Shock Force, Stargrunt, Full Thrust. If the > system has a "design your own..." section you're all set. > > Once a person knows there is a NEL option, suddenly the world is your > oyster...in fact, you can continue to play GW games (if you want) knowing > that you can always play the NEL game which would preserve your investment. > > Oh and many of the NEL games like Fanatasy Rules! have army builder files > available. > John > E-mail & WM: jlmartin@wi.rr.com > URL: http://home.wi.rr.com/jlmartin > "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it." > Robert E. Lee > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, email > > armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#33 |
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> There's a difference between good business tactics and bad business
>tactics. > GW has bad business tactics. Especially when it comes to pleasing Hmmm...They get more and more money and expand constantly. Doesn't seem that bad to me. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#34 |
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> The question I have is: are we willing to put up with some "money-
>grubbing" > tactics in order to ensure WH and 40K will be around in 20 years? >Is paying > an extra dollar per miniature worth having a high quality monthly >magazine? Yes and yes. I do not agree with everything GW does but I sure do prefer GW staying in business instead of going bankrupt. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#35 |
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