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Ghaz
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:05 PM
So? He's an upgrade, but not a VEHICLE upgrade. So once again, where does it say that he can be taken in anything other than a Space Marine army? Where does it say that Space Wolves can get any 'upgrade' in any codex that they want. You and him are making too much of a single word found in his fluff. He is NOT a vehicle upgrade, get over it.
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Grey_Mage
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:08 PM
It doesnt say anything about any codex they want, however if you will refer to the Space wolf FAQ, youll note they take their vehicles and upgrades for tanks from Codex Space marine. He is an upgrade for a tank, a tank is a vehicle. Therefore he is a vehicle upgrade.... very simple.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:12 PM
@ Ghaz - you just admitted he is an UPGRADE....well unless I am mistaken he can only be taken for a TANK....therefore, correct me if I'm wrong, that makes him a VEHICLE UPGRADE. It says it the Space Wolf Codex that we take upgrades for those vehicles we take from the Space Marine Codex....the only exceptions are the Leman Russ Exterminator (which doesn't occur in the Space Marine Codex) and the Venerable Dreadnought (which we have our own rules and upgrade options).

@ GM - Thanks for the backup, I forgot about that part...don't even remember where I saw it.
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Grey_Mage
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:16 PM
Hey muzz, you know Id be the first to say SW couldnt.... but this ones pretty black and white, and i have a feeling that Ghaz is just being dense on purpose. His tone start out as rather combative and got worse. Cervidol and jlong seem a bit more even keeled on this situation, and Id like to hear back from them after theyve reread the appropriate entries.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:24 PM
I understand GM, and I agree....if I could get proof in print that Chronus is specifically NOT a upgrade then I would be the first to admit that we couldn't take him as I do my best not to go the "cheese" way, but as you pointed out it is pretty clear that he is an upgrade.

*EDIT* Well apparently the trouble comes from the fact our FAQ says we take the options from the Space Marine Codex for vehicles but Chronus is an upgrade....option and upgrade are two seperate things according to Jlong which therefore precludes us from taking him for the vehicles. I have a whole other comment for this that I thought of last night after I talked to Jlong (which brings to light the options for vehicles are by definition upgrades, which our FAQ makes no mention of upgrades).

Also was mentioned was that he is a special character (although the entry on pg 127 says other Space Marine Chapters can use the "model and rules for a named character to represent a might hero of a different Chapter" - Space Marine Codex).
muzzyman1981 is offline   #15
Mr_Rose
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 07:28 AM
Hmph.
As a die hard Space Wolf player from second edition onwards, I want to punch both of you in the snout for even thinking of such an aberration. No matter though, this will all be settled soon enough when we finally get our own stand-alone codex back. In the mean time, however, I will thoroughly disabuse anyone of this "idea" should I find them contemplating it within earshot.

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Mr_Rose is offline   #16
Grey_Mage
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 09:27 AM
Im sorry that your insulted that we could take anything from C:SM Mr_Rose, however thats how its been since third edition started. If youd like to explain WHY this cant be done Id love to hear it.... so far no one has brought forth a valid argument about this in a rules context.

No, saying "I dont like it" and failing to argue the scemantics does not count as a valid argument.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 09:35 AM
We aren't saying we want Chronus we are saying we want a counted as....an Iron Priest for example with Chronus' profile.

So far all the arguments against have been "You say it works that way, but I say it doesn't." If someone were to produce something that countermands what we have brought forward we would be the first to stand down but so far what we have found points to Space Wolves getting to use the profile and model.
muzzyman1981 is offline   #18
Grey_Mage
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 09:47 AM
Muzzy, thats saying you want chronus. I dont care one way or the other as I dont use special characters, but Id like the most used army creation method out there to accurately reflect the rules.... so Im not giving this up until I can be convinced the rules dont support it.
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Mr_Rose
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 11:31 AM
The simple reason you can't take him is because he's not on any of the lists of units that are taken directly from Codex Space Marines in Codex Space Wolves, nor is he listed as an option in any of the units that are listed.
You might have a better argument with Telion but, equally, the Scout Squad entry doesn't list him as an option either.

Grey_Mage; I don't really understand how it has escaped your notice before, but GW's rules (and those of most any game) are written in the form of a list of things you can do, with a baseline of not being able to do anything. That is, the default answer is "no" unless you can find somewhere where it says "yes" and no-where does it say yes to the question asked.

And Muzzy, it definitely also doesn't say "you can take someone just like Chronus but dressed differently so that you can tell yourself you aren't stretching the rules."

Next you'll be wanting Land Raider Redeemers. :roll:
Mr_Rose is offline   #20
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