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roguescribner
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:55 AM
I know someone over at the ATT mentioned he told someone over here about the Super-Speed array miscalculating. I just wanted to make sure that Time Control was checked as well (since it's based upon Super-Speed).

An array built from either power should grant 2pp/rank (like the Array structure from UP). Currently, it calculates alternate powers like from the Core book, factoring in the base power's parent cost for AP cost.

I also can't believe no one has ever brought this up before! Either no one is building too many speedsters/time controllers or they're enjoying the extra points.
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Colen
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:25 AM
Time Control works the same as Super-Speed - you have to add an alternate power, then add the "Special Alternate Power" power feat for free and select it. Then the power is limited to 2pp / rank. If you don't do this, you pay the standard 1 point for a normal alternate power, which means you effectively ignore the free super-speed power feat.

I just checked, and now that I fixed Super-Speed, Time Control is fixed as well (for things like activating multiple alternate powers at once). So this should be resolved in the next update.
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roguescribner
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Right, it's not the Special Alternate Power that's in contention. That's a freebie that works as a third linked power with Speed and Quickness at no more than 2pp/rank. According to UP, the alternate powers should also be restricted to 2pp/rank, but they currently are not. They provide a pool of points up to the cost of the parent power (5pp/rank or more for Time Control).

Essentially, it should work as an Array with Super-Speed as the base power and a third power of the player's choosing added for free. Even though Super-Speed is 5pp/rank, everything else should be restricted to 2pp/rank.

I guess the Core book isn't clear on this issue (since arrays in Core used parent cost for the array pool), but UP explicitly states that the array for Super-Speed provides 2pp/rank. So it'd have to be changed if UP is being utilized.

Last edited by roguescribner; May 17th, 2010 at 04:32 PM.
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Colen
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:17 PM
There are two ways to buy alternate powers for Super-Speed. One is to simply buy them as a normal alternate power, in which case you can buy them as normal. These alternate powers can't be used at the same time as the base Super-Speed power, just like regular alternate powers.

The other way is to tag the alternate powers as the "special alternate power". For super-speed & time control, this limits the alternate power to a maximum of 2pp/rank, but allows it to be used at the same time as Super-Speed. Effectively, tagging something as a special alternate power makes it the third linked power that can be used at the same time as Quickness and Speed. It's not really an alternate power, at that point.

Does that make sense?
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roguescribner
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Old May 18th, 2010, 06:04 AM
I don't think I'm making myself clear, so I'll quote Ultimate Power.

Super-Speed

Quote:
You have Quickness and Speed effects equal to your power rank and a +4 bonus to initiative checks (essentially one rank of Improved Initiative) per power rank. You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array). Choose one of the following Alternate Powers, acquiring the others normally (for 1 point per Alternate Power feat).
Time Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time Control
In addition to the various Alternate Power feats given for Super-Speed, the following are some suitable Alternate Powers for a Time Control Array. They’re based on the built-in Array of the power (2 points per rank).
Irrespective of the free alternate power Super-Speed and (by extension) Time Control give you, the array is still capped at 2pp/rank. It's just that they are treated as alternate powers and not a linked power like the Special Alternate Power is. But they share the same point cap. Currently, Super-Speed alternate powers are capped at 5pp/rank and Time Control alternate powers are capped at 7pp/rank. If you read the descriptions of some of the alternate powers for Super-Speed and Time Control, they mention X power (with X extra and/or X flaw) at your power rank or a fraction of your power rank. Building the alternate powers in Hero Lab per the description from the book leaves plenty of extra power points to spend, which doesn't quite add up. It should only be 2pp/rank.

Now whether this restriction applies if you're using Core rules only I'm not sure, since the 2pp/rank Array rules weren't introduced until UP.
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roguescribner
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Old May 18th, 2010, 06:13 AM
And just to break it down further:

If using Ultimate Power, rank 10 Super-Speed should provide 20pp to build an alternate power, not 50pp; rank 10 Time Control should provide 20pp to build an alternate power, not 70pp.

That applies to the free power you build or any other alternates.

If using Core rules, that's up for debate.
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Duggan
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Old May 18th, 2010, 12:14 PM
Hmm... I know that adding Super-Speed X adds the powers of Quickness X and Speed X. Would it be feasible to just add another power to that, Super-Speed Array X, from which we can do the APs? One of the base problems we have here is that you can AP off of your Super-Speed Array and you can AP off of Super-Speed itself, and we need an easy way to distinguish them if you do one or both.

For example:
Super-Speed 4 [20 pp]
--Super-Speed Array 4
--- BP: Strike 7 (PF: Mighty)
--- AP: Burrowing 8
AP: Insubstantial 4 [1 pp]

The only problem I can think of is that I think the "encapsulated powers" don't seem to allow stepping into them to add further extras/APs. *wry grin* As usual, nowhere near my copy to actually check if this is the case.

Edit: And, now that I've had a chance to test the implementation in 3.6, it all works. The special APs are capped at 2*X and the AP of the entire power is capped at 5*X. Well done. ^_^ Not that I should expect any less of you guys.

Last edited by Duggan; May 18th, 2010 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Follow-up after testing.
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Colen
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Old May 25th, 2010, 04:52 PM
roguescribner and I seem to be talking past each other. Rogue, you quote in your message:

Quote:
You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array).
In Hero Lab, you can add one of these effects by adding an alternate power and "flagging it as the special alternate power". That limits it to 2 points per rank, which means you can use it at the same time as the other Super-Speed effects.

Hmm... are you asking for a way to add multiple effects, for +1PP each? For example, you can use Super-Speed at the same time as effects X, Y or Z, each of which was bought with 2 power points per rank, for an extra 2 points on top of the base Super-Speed cost?
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roguescribner
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Old May 27th, 2010, 09:44 AM
We do seem to be talking past each other. :-p

Broken down, Super-Speed is Speed (1pp/rank) + Quickness (1pp/rank) + Improved Initiative (1pp/rank) + Array (2pp/rank). That totals up to 5pp/rank.

In Hero Lab, if you add an alternate power to Super-Speed, it follows the parent cost of the power (5pp/rank) not the Array cost (2pp/rank). Again, the Core rulebook is a little fuzzy on the issue, but it seems explicit to me that UP says all powers should be no more than 2pp/rank. Yes, you may purchase a Special Alternate Power for free that is also limited to 2pp/rank, but all other powers are similarly limited, they just cost 1pp for the alternate power feat.

From the Core book:

Quote:
You have Quickness (see page 96) and Speed (see page 100) equal to
your power rank and a +4 bonus to initiative checks per power rank. You
also gain one of the power feats below at your power rank (choose one
when you acquire Super-Speed). You can acquire the others as standard
power feats.
Emphasis mine. It goes on to list suitable alternate powers such as Air Control, Burrowing, Deflect (slow/fast projectiles), Strike, Stun, and Suffocate. All of those powers are 1pp - 2pp/rank which leads me to believe even in Core alternate powers should be limited to 2pp/rank.

But like I said, UP is more explicit:

Quote:
Effect: Array, Quickness, Speed
Quote:
You have Quickness and Speed effects equal to your power rank and
a +4 bonus to initiative checks (essentially one rank of Improved Initiative) per power rank. You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array). Choose one of the following Alternate Powers, acquiring the others normally (for 1 point per Alternate Power feat).
Recommended alternate powers are:

Air Control (2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Bullet (basically Blast, 2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Deflect (fast/slow projectiles) (2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Rapid Fire (blast with autofire, 3pp/rank) at 2/3 Super-Speed power rank.
Sonic Boom (3pp/rank) at 2/3 Super-Speed power rank.

The list goes on, but not one power costs more than 2pp/rank without having to reduce the ranks of the power below Super-Speed. That to me means that ANY power you choose to add to the Super-Speed array is max cost 2pp/rank, whether it's the free special alternate power or the standard ones.

Super-Speed is special in that it is a container that also has an array. So the Super-Speed effects (speed, quickness, improved initiative, + 1 free alt power) are all usable apart from the other alternate powers in the array. A Speedster will always be able to move and attack or move and throw up protection without having to worry about switching the array only once per round. The container is not the array, it provides an array. Therefore, alternate powers should not follow parent cost. If I have Super-Speed 10, I should not be able to purchase a 50pp alternate power, only a 20pp alternate power. The array is separate from (but linked to) the Super-Speed container.

Make sense?

If I'm still not making myself clear, then check out this link, this link, and this link in the Official Rules Questions at the Atomic Think Tank. They show that Super-Speed is a container of effects linked to (or wrapped around) an array and that array is limited to 2pp/rank.

The only way someone should have a 50pp alternate power for Super-Speed is if they bought Super-Speed 25 (not Super-Speed 10).
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Duggan
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Old May 27th, 2010, 10:34 AM
Or if the Super-Speed power itself were APed, meaning that you don't have access to its benefits. To allow for both cases, they have the regular AP if you want to AP all of Super-Speed, as seen in my Insubstantial example upthread, or the "Special AP" which is limited to just the 2*Rank points. I've tried both and they both work, even in concert on the same power.

Are you not getting this behavior on your copy of the software? Or are you objecting to having to set up the Super-Speed APs differently than APs on other powers?
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