Player View not Dynamic?

I used Realm Works as a DM in live action (Turtle Man, anyone?) last night. Since it was our first time with RW, first time with Pathfinder, first time with d20Pro and first time with Hero Lab, the whole night was kind of a hot mess, but we are all jazzed about the future.

One thing that really surprised me, though, was that updates in the GM console (like revealing a snippet) don't dynamically update in the player view, i.e. don't show up on the player's laptops until a sync is performed. Is that correct? Is that as planned? So, the only way for them to actually see updates is if I have a 2nd monitor and I place my GM "Player View" on it?

Are there plans for this to be dynamic or will it always only be a look into the "past" for the players? Will the browser version change this?

Thanks & my apologies if this has been discussed before; I did perform a search but didn't see this particular topic.

Grgbobe

Yeah, this has been discussed a bit before.

Terms (for Clarity)

Player View is a specific tool within the GM Version of the application that allows the GM to show things to the players "live", best used on a second monitor.

Player Mode is a setting in the GM Version of the application that allows the GM Version to "act like" the Player Version (though it sometimes can't hide everything, based on past comments).

Player Version and GM Version are the ways the application operates, based on your logged-in account and whether that account is the Owner of the Realm (GM Version) or a guest in that Realm (Player Version). It is the same software.. it just behaves differently based on your account settings. Even if you have a GM Account, if you're logged-in as a guest/player in a Realm, you only see the Player Version functionality. A Player Account is always a Player, while a GM Account can be either a Player or GM, depending on the Realm.

I make a point of the terms because there is usually some mis-use of them when the discussions start.. such as you calling the Player copies "player's view"... which is, unfortunately, the name of something else related to the topic. So before anyone can give good advice, we need to make sure we're all clear on what's what.

So, yeah, live update to the player's copies is NOT supported at this time. It has been requested, and the eventual web access may help that somewhat -- though it is likely that the GM would still need to sync changes before they appear in the web view. Even when GM web access is added (someday... no timeframe yet), it will likely have less features than the desktop client (caveats: based on past comments, subject to change, etc.).

Realm Works is not a VTT or competitor to VTTs.. it is not intended for live updates to the Players' copy at the table. The main intended use of the Player Version is for checking things between sessions. If you're already using a VTT like d20Pro, planning to use that for your dynamic displays might be the best bet.If you have a second monitor, or don't mind adding one, then the Player View tool in the GM Version might be a good solution for you.

Rob has never said anything about live updates. As far as I know syncs will always be required before player version will update.

If you think about you'll see why. RW is not maintaining a live connection between systems. It simply downloads the realm from the cloud when you sync, and if you've got player level access, lets you see the revealed bits. The only way to update is for the GM to make changes on his local version, sync those changes to the cloud and then for the players to DL those changes.

Changing that would be a non trivial change to how RW works. I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

Player Version (Edition from the web site, I think) is what I was talking about. Thanks for clarifying the verbiage.

I found the marketing material on Player Version (Edition) giving the impression that updates were in-game and revealing a snippet, for example, appeared in the Player Edition right away. After running a game (finally), it makes total sense that it doesn't do that based on the "sync" functionality.

In my head, I imagined how the game would go based on this marketing blurb: "The need for a binder (or two) of notes is over! Realm Works Player Edition gives you access to everything your GM has disclosed during play. Visualize your GM's world as you navigate through the story with full-text searching, full content linking, and more! You can even tie your own personal notes to the people, places, and events that make up the adventure. With your GM's story at your fingertips, you can come with everything you need for your next game!"

It's unfortunate and changes how my game sessions will go, but I "get it".

So, let me ask those who have been using Player Edition regularly, do you ever sync mid-game or anything or do you simply use it for offline and for referencing prior sessions?

Thanks,

Grg

If you get you players to use it at all you're doing better than me.

kbs666 said:

....The only way to update is for the GM to make changes on his local version, sync those changes to the cloud and then for the players to DL those changes.

Click to expand...

If the GM will have a web version and that version does anything but view, it will have to do one of three things:
1. Make the GM's computer a server for the database - wow, I'd be shocked if a company with the resources of LWD ever tackled something like that.
2. Edit the cloud version of the GM's world, requiring a reverse-sync back to the normal working location at some point.
3. Somehow buffer the changes, store them in the cloud, and when the GM accesses his normal realm with an internet connection, he is alerted that there are web changes pending and would he like to install them. - this is maybe even harder than option one to implement.

In any event, if either of these three are done, it would only be a modicum of additional complexity to let the user see the 'live' version.

[edit]But I would like to be wrong....

I don't think we will see a GM version with edit ability in several goblin generations....

My players all have it and no. I never sync in-game. Think of the player version as a journal for the players that populates at the end of each session. It's not there to deal with now. That's the DM's job while at the table. It's a post lookup tool that enables the players to go back a year from now and lookup that NPC they met or to checkout what they know about an item.

We all agree that live sync would be cool. But frankly, until the Web View arrives there's no need for it at my table. We can't put 9 laptops around the table. Takes away too much from the game.

Now what we do use RW for is the Player View. As you can see below I have mounted a second screen to my roof looking out to my players. Using Realm Works I can very efficiently show pictures and content to the players from here. It's awesome for monsters, npcs, places, handouts, etc.

Personally I still consider Realm Works to be 'MY' private DM binder. It's not there to benefit my players. We have started to change that now we have player versions but its purpose and primary use is still to benefit me. My player's are the afterthought for me since I consider it my role to relay the necessary information to them.

kbs666 said:

If you get you players to use it at all you're doing better than me.

Click to expand...

Ditto that....
My players have totally abandoned it... even several saying they were fortunate "to only waste $6"....
Others simply gave up as the features "promised" have yet to materialize.

Granted, we are still gaming on table locally... not everyone has that luxury. For those that might utilize RW more as a Play by email or remotely TMMV...

Lastly, until custom calendars and more importantly, PC level journals, I cannot utilize it from a DM perspective for players either. Our open sandbox gaming style means not all PCs know all information "revealed" and unfortunately, within the current RW state of capabilities, it's an "all or nothing" reveal state.

DLG

daplunk said:

..........
Personally I still consider Realm Works to be 'MY' private DM binder. It's not there to benefit my players. .......

Click to expand...

Exactly my use of RW as well...

Nice table by the way...
DLG

I have had the exact opposite experience as most here it would seem. I run two games over the internet via VTT and my players in both games have been using RW for over a year and loving it.

They enjoy being able to look up spells, feats, magic items and such and then also seen any changes (ie., house rules, mythic changes, and/or errata) that have been applied. Plus as custom magic items have entered the game it has been easier for them to track.

Their major complaint has been that calendars have not yet been brought online as it were.

Bidmaron said:

If the GM will have a web version and that version does anything but view, it will have to do one of three things:
1. Make the GM's computer a server for the database - wow, I'd be shocked if a company with the resources of LWD ever tackled something like that.

Click to expand...

This is actually really easy. Every DB out there is network aware right out of the box so whether the updates come from the thick client on the local machine or a thin client on a local machine should be irrelevant.

The scenario where you use the web client on a different machine than one where the DB is installed would likely mean the web client talks to the cloud rather than your local DB, strictly for security reasons and lack of knowledge of your ip addy and whether opened the right port on your firewall and left your system running, but the technical issues of accessing a DB remotely are trivial.

My experience is similar to kbs666... even though I got my players licenses for free, they refused to even try it. I can kind of understand the Mac-based players not wanting to run a virtual machine .. but the ones on PCs claimed to be too computer illiterate to even run Setup.

However, my hope is that more people will see it used as Grey Mage mentions... a perfect place for House Rules, custom spells, and so on.

I play Pathfinder... and if I adopt say, 15 of the many variant rules in Pathfinder Unchained, a realm that has the Core Rules other than these, and has these replacing the relevant parts of the Core Rules, means the players have one place to look for all the relevant rules.. without needing to remember, "oh, the ones page XX of the Core Rulebook are replaced by the ones on page YY of Unchained".

Similarly, a pet peeve of mine has been the rules (from 3.x on into Pathfinder) for knowledge checks about monsters. So I am making my own, and have a "Critters" Category that is solely for what the PCs know or think they know about each monster. A section of header information giving me the numbers needed to determine a check... a section of bits of information graded by the DC for the knowledge check.. and a third section for things they've learned by experiencing them (meeting the creatures). All automatically cross-referenced to the encounters where they happen.

Silveras said:

My experience is similar to kbs666... even though I got my players licenses for free, they refused to even try it. I can kind of understand the Mac-based players not wanting to run a virtual machine .. but the ones on PCs claimed to be too computer illiterate to even run Setup.

However, my hope is that more people will see it used as Grey Mage mentions... a perfect place for House Rules, custom spells, and so on.

I play Pathfinder... and if I adopt say, 15 of the many variant rules in Pathfinder Unchained, a realm that has the Core Rules other than these, and has these replacing the relevant parts of the Core Rules, means the players have one place to look for all the relevant rules.. without needing to remember, "oh, the ones page XX of the Core Rulebook are replaced by the ones on page YY of Unchained".

Similarly, a pet peeve of mine has been the rules (from 3.x on into Pathfinder) for knowledge checks about monsters. So I am making my own, and have a "Critters" Category that is solely for what the PCs know or think they know about each monster. A section of header information giving me the numbers needed to determine a check... a section of bits of information graded by the DC for the knowledge check.. and a third section for things they've learned by experiencing them (meeting the creatures). All automatically cross-referenced to the encounters where they happen.

Click to expand...

That's been the annoying part. My campaign is very heavily modified from "straight" pathfinder. Only specific races, classes, archetypes and feats are allowed. The central listing of those is in RW, I tried creating a campaign specific source for HL but I failed miserably and have never had the time or inclination to try again. So my players really need to access RW to know what are and aren't legal options for their characters. Some of the players just ask me and some just level up and hope I don't review their character sheet afterwards, I always do, and then complain if they've done something out of bounds and I make them fix it.

kbs666 said:

That's been the annoying part. My campaign is very heavily modified from "straight" pathfinder. Only specific races, classes, archetypes and feats are allowed. The central listing of those is in RW, I tried creating a campaign specific source for HL but I failed miserably and have never had the time or inclination to try again. So my players really need to access RW to know what are and aren't legal options for their characters. Some of the players just ask me and some just level up and hope I don't review their character sheet afterwards, I always do, and then complain if they've done something out of bounds and I make them fix it.

Click to expand...

That's why once I finish my Rise of the Runelords realm I will be looking for a group of new players (not just a new group of players, but those new enough not to have bad habits).

The Realm us more than 85% done ... I just have to finish the last Adventure chapter and it will be done. Well, that, and populate the shells of the 100+ "Critter" records I made for knowledge checks.

I use RW for my own benefit as a GM and world builder.

During game sessions I present info on a secondary monitor, which works very well.

All my players bring a windows laptop to the table and make notes and keep their character sheets on it.

One player has invested in RW Player Edition and usually looks up things during the session (which would only be information from the past sessions - not the one we are running). After the session when I have updated the realm he looks through the new info for fun (he is that kind of guy).

I have never suggested they should invest in RW - they know I use it and like it (they even insist I drop smart pen-and-paper maps on the table and instead uses the fog-of-world of RW. Which works very well.

kbs666 said:

The scenario where you use the web client on a different machine than one where the DB is installed would likely mean the web client talks to the cloud rather than your local DB, strictly for security reasons and lack of knowledge of your ip addy and whether opened the right port on your firewall and left your system running, but the technical issues of accessing a DB remotely are trivial.

Click to expand...

This is not correct for most non-commercial databases. You can go through the cloud, but that is not the way RW works. For a computer to serve a database, it must at least be turned on, connected to the internet, and have a port open as a server (or use UPN or some other auto-server type protocol).

The option you mentioned, going through the cloud, is one of the three options I listed.

Bidmaron said:

This is not correct for most non-commercial databases. You can go through the cloud, but that is not the way RW works. For a computer to serve a database, it must at least be turned on, connected to the internet, and have a port open as a server (or use UPN or some other auto-server type protocol).

The option you mentioned, going through the cloud, is one of the three options I listed.

Click to expand...

WTH is a non commercial database?

OK, kbs, you go try to set up any database you own to serve database entries. Yes, some databases come with that capability, but it is beyond the ability of most users to actually get it to work. First, you have to go open the port, tell your firewall to allow the program to use that port, etc, etc.

Then there is the problem that almost everyone who isn't commercial user has a dynamic IP address, and serving database entries just is not something non-commercial users can do (yes, there are commercial packages that cost butt-tons that can partially automate the process - that is what I meant by commercial database).

But we are getting distracted. My main point was that we are not going to get dynamic updating realms any time soon. RW does not maintain the database on the cloud - you have to sync to get the updates there, and you cannot do that while you are in the realm database. Until they change that policy, we are NEVER going to see any client or web edition that accesses a realm in active use by the GM.

That would be a major architecture change. And that is also why we will never see a GM version that lets you do any edits on your realm (unless they do one of the three things I said they could do).

The reason it doesn't do network outside of the cloud is the marketplace.

Like Diablo 3 - the only way to ensure sanity on rights management is to have a central server. That complicates 'live' updates.

This program isn't meant to be a live update.... really it's more like:

* replaces your campaign world notes
* allows the gm to make notes of who is alive and dead and when
* Create a new NPC on the fly that the players like? Now you don't forget the name - can look it up easy - and it auto-links when you create new content.
* Want to place a hint to adventure B 100000 miles away (on the map) in the dungeon? You can - and link it - and have links back to it - so that you don't get lost trying to remember who the 'mysterious letter' was for or about.
* Replace Obsidian Portal (for those of you who use that) as a campaign tracking device
* Be your own personal Wiki and rule keeper
* Create a new house rule to deal with 'something' note it and it's always linked to your house rules - no more forgetting about it until months later when you all go 'how did we rule that last time?'
* Let your players review the world they know (with the player version) when they are trying to remember the name of that baron that offered them a reward if they found sandlewood bookshelves ever.

etc.

Bidmaron said:

OK, kbs, you go try to set up any database you own to serve database entries. Yes, some databases come with that capability, but it is beyond the ability of most users to actually get it to work. First, you have to go open the port, tell your firewall to allow the program to use that port, etc, etc.

Click to expand...

I do it for a living. You're asking the wrong person if you think its hard.