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Viking2054
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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Old June 10th, 2015, 08:37 PM
I don't think we mind discussions on how to share our own personal creations with others. However the subject of sharing other peoples intellectual property without their permission is touchy, especially on any website for a company that may be trying to obtain licenses from those IP holders. Lucasarts and now Disney are rather miserly when it comes to their IP and lobby to protect that IP, maybe beyond reason. Take any of this topic to some other forum like EN World or Reddit and you probably won't face these concerns. But I want continued access to this software I've purchased and I hope to be able to buy good content off of the content market once it is up and running. I doubt it will include any Star Wars material, but one can hope.

If you want to talk about best practices for how to enter EotE information into RW for your own use and the use of your players you invite into your game and into your RW creation, then go right ahead. You have every legal right to backup your legally purchased content, including into RW. But you don't have the right to distribute it to others that haven't purchased the material. I believe a gaming group would probably fall into fair use, as long as the gaming group isn't too huge. After all, most gaming groups pass around their gaming books to help out the poorer members in their group.

I don't want to see you or anyone banned from using RW to its full potential. I just want you to use it to its full potential legally. Using it within the legal limits protects you, me, LWD and all its customers.

You should also remember that Realm Works is still very much a work in progress. Some things will come with further development. The content market and the web interface are the two being worked on at the moment. The web interface should allow your players to view some of your cloud content for free... although my understanding is that an owner of the player edition or GM edition will get a lot more out of the experience even when logging in through the web then the guys that go the free route.
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MNBlockHead
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Old June 10th, 2015, 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azomboid View Post
Lastly, I'd like to mention that the said this is not a virtual table top and that the player edition is simply for players to access the data from the server. I personally didn't realize it lacked the feature for me to reveal information in real time... I should have watched more of the videos but in some of the videos they talk about trying to partner with someone to achieve this feature or group of features. The player edition I feel is a prime example of the data not being yours... I have to buy the player edition for my players to have any access to the data in any form not simply to use the servers. In that sense they are charging me for the single way to access my own data and that was more the point about the EA comparison.
I would like to point out that the second priority after the Content Market is a Web-based players access, which will include a way for your players to access specific content of yours for free, without needing to buy software. For more information see this thread: http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=52844

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AEIOU
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Old June 10th, 2015, 09:36 PM
Players will have free access to your game data with the release of the web client. My understanding is that players that also own the player client will be able to do more with that data.

Read the posts each of us have made instead of just reacting to them. Banning is not being advocated but rather stated as a possible result if one flaunts the IP of rights holders.

I would strongly suggest folks that plan to share content do some reading about intellectual property, copyright in gaming and fair use. In the d20 world, that would include the Open Game License. Other systems have specific copyright and trademark restrictions. Get some solid information to help avoid naive assumptions that may land a person in hot water. And if you plan to share for profit, re-read all of that information several times.

And lastly, for democracy to be effective, people need to be involved. It is by definition, government by the people. Democracy doesn't exist if you don't participate.
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Vargr
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Old June 11th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azomboid View Post
Lastly, I'd like to mention that the said this is not a virtual table top and that the player edition is simply for players to access the data from the server. I personally didn't realize it lacked the feature for me to reveal information in real time... I should have watched more of the videos but in some of the videos they talk about trying to partner with someone to achieve this feature or group of features. The player edition I feel is a prime example of the data not being yours... I have to buy the player edition for my players to have any access to the data in any form not simply to use the servers. In that sense they are charging me for the single way to access my own data and that was more the point about the EA comparison.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying:
You need the player version in order to access the data.

True, if you want your players to shift through your realm at their leisure.
But RW can be utilised without investing in the player version. It is first and foremost a world building and campaign management system (at least as I see it) and you can easily use it during sessions without any of your players having a player version - that's what I am doing.

Vargr
Deputy Calendar Champion


Legend has it, that the Tarrasque is a huge fighting beast, perpetually hungry.
Sleet entered History when he managed to get on the back of a Tarrasque only to be ridden out of History shortly after.

Using Realm Works, Worldographer (Hexographer 2), LibreOffice, Daz3D Studio, pen & paper for the realm World of Temeon and the system LEFD - both homebrewed.

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azomboid
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Old June 12th, 2015, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I totally understand that. Right now I kinda use a skype/player window function to do our games remotely. It kinda works... I've been looking for something perhaps more to my need if anyone has a suggestion. I really like Realm Works as a campaign tool my only problem with it is it's lack of versatility with the data. Lastly, I disagree with the idea you can have a discussion about piracy without somehow advocating for it's merits or lack there of. I understand I have a anti IP view and would like to see a reigning in of those laws however I don't advocate theft. That however doesn't stop it from happening nor does not discussing it and how it relates to the current issue. The OP at one point in another post something to the point of why a print function couldn't be added without some sort of security measure to prevent piracy via pdf or other digital print method. Just out of curiosity I tried to find a fool proof or even very difficult method out there and I couldn't. I admit that I only looked for a little while but I'd ask if you guys have ever seen one? This seems at least with little research this would be a security innovation that itself could be sold for tons of money. Sorry about the rant agian and thanks for the discussion and sorry if I made anyone angry and have a wonderful day.
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Viking2054
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Old June 12th, 2015, 05:00 AM
security for printing to PDF, as far as I know, involves putting a digital watermark in the printout that includes information that identifies the persons account that printed the information to PDF. That way the IP holder can show the license holder the PDF floating around the internet and they can examine it and look up the watermark to whomever leaked the PDF. Once that is done, the mass distributor of the PDF can face legal action by both the IP holder and the License holder.

Now, I don't know if RW will put a digital watermark in every PDF generated or only those sold through the content marketplace. I'd bet it will go in every PDF generated, just in case someone types it in themselves and then try's to distribute it. Although I think it's unlikely for someone to type in a module or source book into RW just to create a PDF. And if you buy a PDF off of places like Drive Thru, I believe they already do this.

I know of one author of novels that tried selling one book through Amazon's Kindle system and had it pirated... He blew a gasket on his forums and named the individual that put it on the internet. I think he also took legal action against the person. But he also took some social backlash from the people that like to pirate, he ended up closing his forums but he also stopped any and all distribution on the Kindle and I doubt he will ever release a digital book again or at least wait several years after the paperback comes out first.
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liz
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Old June 12th, 2015, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azombiod View Post
This DRM obsession is made this software useless for me ...
I'm sorry to hear that you feel Realm Works is not valuable to you in your current state. Our reasons for needing to think about security for export are outlined by Rob earlier in the thread, so there's no point in me re-hashing them again. If you disagree with our approach despite the business realities he explained, that's fine - everyone can have their own opinion. I'd also like to point out that you're still within your 60 day purchase window, so you're welcome to request a refund by emailing support@wolflair.com.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azombiod View Post
... but more importantly I think the survey is disingenuous. I personally think based on reading these forums all day and a few other gaming forums that it does not reflect the wider view of the audience.
I do cry foul at the statement above. This survey was anything but disingenuous. We had over 1000 Realm Works users (and prospective users) participate. Print to PDF was squarely in the middle of the results, and simple export and import via XML was near the bottom. To see the full announcement and conversation, head here. There were some additional questions that Rob was happy to answer in that thread.

It sounds like some sort of export/printing is important to you, but that doesn't make it important to every Realm Works user. Frustration that your top feature request wasn't the most important for everyone does not make it okay to accuse us of misleading our customers in any way. Lone Wolf has been in business for over 20 years, and we couldn't have lasted this long in this industry and built up a loyal user base by lying to our customers.

You're welcome to debate and even disagree with our business decisions here on our forums, but spreading misinformation will be called out (either in a post like this or a PM). I encourage you to read our forum rules, and feel free to PM me directly if you have any questions.

Last edited by liz; June 12th, 2015 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Edited typo.
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pyremius
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Old June 12th, 2015, 01:02 PM
As someone who completed the survey but doesn't remember the exact scores given for every question, I can still confirm that if I didn't rate export a 0, the higher score would only have been in deference to some of the people who argued for it more persuasively then those arguing for other features I have equally little interest in.

I doubt I rated print much higher: if I'm buying a commercial package, I expect any handouts would be embedded as a high-quality PDF in color, with stains/tears, etc. If it's not a handout I doubt I'd have any reason to print it instead of revealing it to the players to look at electronically. If it's my own data the same guidelines apply (although as a non-artist the handouts would look significantly worse ).

For me, the fact that Rob's promised to make sure some form of export is available if the company fails is enough. I've been working with Army Builder for probably a decade, and Hero Lab since getting back into RPGs. As a company I can think of very few others who are as upfront about potential issues and responsive to user questions or complaints. Quite simply, if they say they will do something, either it will happen or we'll get a detailed explanation of why it's not viable (and we already know export is technically possible).

Given the equality of what we have now, it's easy to forget that Realm Works is still in its infancy. "Later" is never the answer we want to hear for our preferred feature, but they're not writing for us, individually - they're writing for us collectively, and prioritizing their work accordingly.
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EightBitz
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Old June 12th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
I don’t have any problems with you saying Realm Works lacks a feature YOU value, but let others make their own choice whether the product meets their requirements – which, if our survey results are any indication, will usually be very different from yours on the matter of export capability.
Your survey results are only an indication of who have already purchased your product. I HAVE mentioned your product on other forums in the context of "make your own choice", and the most common feedback I've received is that people won't even consider purchasing your product if they can't print or export. They don't want their data locked in.

There's certainly something to be said for rewarding your existing customer base, but there's also something to be said for growing that base. I don't claim to know what your current growth rate is or if you're happy with it. I'm just telling you what feedback I've seen.

EDIT:

I just saw Liz's statement:
Quote:
We had over 1000 Realm Works users (and prospective users) participate."
I did not realize that prospective users participated in the survey, so I apologize for my ignorance on that point. That being said, what I've said about the feedback I've read when mentioning RealmWorks on other forums is still true.

Last edited by EightBitz; June 12th, 2015 at 02:30 PM.
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Farling
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Old June 13th, 2015, 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz View Post
That being said, what I've said about the feedback I've read when mentioning RealmWorks on other forums is still true.
I've found that a very few people on forums can be quite vocal with their opinions, which tends to artificially skew the perceived truth if the wider audience isn't also considered.
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