(All) 0-rank powers

[Colen]

Hey gang,

I have in my notes that someone wanted me to add 0-rank powers to the data files, so that you could take a power down to 0 ranks instead of having it capped at 1 rank. Unfortunately I didn't make a note of why - can anyone refresh my memory as to why you would want to do this?

Thanks

[Duggan]

I remember requests for 0 pp powers (for example, for Free powers that everyone in-universe has). Rank 0 powers might also make sense for someone looking to Boost said powers or mark them as being the target of Absorption.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Colen

Hey gang,

I have in my notes that someone wanted me to add 0-rank powers to the data files, so that you could take a power down to 0 ranks instead of having it capped at 1 rank. Unfortunately I didn't make a note of why - can anyone refresh my memory as to why you would want to do this?

Thanks

Hi Colen,

I'll refresh your memory in a different direction. Many moons ago I pointed you to where the 2nd Edition rules state that no matter how low you try to take the cost of a power (be it through drawbacks, flaws or a combination of the two), no power can ever cost a character less than 1 power point to possess it.

So, if the person wanted a 0-rank power so it would be "free" or maybe "earn them some points back via creative use of drawbacks/flaws" that's a no-no....in 2nd Edition. I don't know if 3rd Edition allows it.

Of course the GM can always override this for the reason Duggan suggested or any other reason the GM has.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer.

[Colen]

I think Duggan's idea is right. Let's say that I added an "allow 0 ranks" extra, that let you take a specific power down to 0 ranks, that would cost 0 points (since it wouldn't have any effects). The idea would be that other powers in devices / arrays / etc could "stack with" it, to boost it up from 0 ranks.

You'd be able to add power extras / flaws to such powers, but it'd be up to the player to make sure that the powers they "stacked with" had the same extras & flaws; it would be difficult for Hero Lab to validate for you.

Would that be a useful feature to add?

Nigel: You make a good point, but these powers would do nothing at all until something "stacked with" them or otherwise boosted them. So it'd be OK for them to cost 0, since they effectively don't exist (and have no effect) unless something stacks with them. They probably wouldn't appear in output, for example.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Colen

I think Duggan's idea is right. Let's say that I added an "allow 0 ranks" extra, that let you take a specific power down to 0 ranks, that would cost 0 points (since it wouldn't have any effects). The idea would be that other powers in devices / arrays / etc could "stack with" it, to boost it up from 0 ranks.

You'd be able to add power extras / flaws to such powers, but it'd be up to the player to make sure that the powers they "stacked with" had the same extras & flaws; it would be difficult for Hero Lab to validate for you.

Would that be a useful feature to add?

Nigel: You make a good point, but these powers would do nothing at all until something "stacked with" them or otherwise boosted them. So it'd be OK for them to cost 0, since they effectively don't exist (and have no effect) unless something stacks with them. They probably wouldn't appear in output, for example.

I hear what you are saying Colen but it seems, at least at first pondering, to be a little redundant considering that the Power Extra: Stacks with... already exists. Or is that only available in 2E? Anyway, would the 'Stacks with' Power Extra then be a mandatory, or HL automatically assigned, component of a Zero-rank Power?

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

[Colen]

It wouldn't be mandatory, but there would be no point to having a zero-rank power without it.

This would also be an optional rule - you wouldn't be able to take powers down to 0 ranks without checking a box, so you could simply tell your players "Hey, don't use this optional rule" if you don't like it.

[charlieluce]

The Boost/Absorption part would only be for 2e, since 3e doesn't work that way; you have to buy the "full power" and then Flaw it.

As for "free" powers, between the fact that starting points can be set arbitrarily and the Permanent Adjustment option, I don't see the need.

I'd rather see the time spent fixing bugs in 3e and working on the improved character sheet output.

[Colen]

Thanks for your feedback on this, guys. Please continue posting here if there's anything that wasn't covered above, and I'll come back and check this over before the next release.

[JohnMatrix]

A 0-rank for powers, combined with the stacks-with extra would allow for builds that include extras applied to powers from different sources. In a manner similar to how (Strength Bonus) Strength is used to add penetrating to normal punches.

An example build that would benefit from 0-rank powers is the Black Knight build from Taliesin's 2e Roll Call thread @ the Atomic Think Tank.

Originally Posted by Taliesin's 2e Black Knight

Shield of Night (14pp total)
Deflect 10 (energy attacks; 10pp)
Shield 4 (4pp)

Sword of Light (34pp total)
Reflection/Redirection 10 (applied to Shield of Night’s Deflect; 20pp)
AP: Dazzle 10 (Visual; 1pp)
Strike 3 (Extra: Penetrating 7 [+1]; Power Feats: Improved Critical 2, Mighty; 13pp)

By giving the Sword of Light a 0-rank of Deflect, you could apply 10 extra ranks of the Reflection and Deflection extras, and then stack them with the Deflect from the Shield of Night.

Similarly you could do something similar with Cyclops' visor, giving it a 0-rank of Blast with 10 ranks of a custom extra indicating it buys off the uncontrolled flaw on Cyclops' natural Blast power.

Now if you could possibly add an option for Device pp paying for alternate powers on powers outside of the device, I'd be really happy.

[JDRook]

This sounds like it would solve the "naked" Modifier suggestion I'd brought up before. It was inspired by the Force Bubble slot build in the official Green Lantern build, which was 3 Extras in an array slot that applied to Immunity: Life Support outside the array. One of the other posters pointed out that you can actually set up Immunity 0 in HeroLab and just add modifiers.

Having the ability to do this with other effects would be fantastic. In fact, it would actually be better (or at least more in line with the rules) than just free-floating modifiers because you have to identify what specific effect they're going to be applied to first. It may even be easier to implement.