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Mathius at ticnet.com
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Old August 8th, 2000, 05:43 PM
That's it.. grab the flamers.... set the torpedoes... ramming speed!

Hey, if we didn't have people to point things out.. it wouldn't get fixed
heh..

I'm sure Colen loves all the love mail he gets although I know he's
getting ready for Gen Con so he probably won't get to it for atleast a week


We won't hold it against you though ... we're mostly a good bunch of
folks... <cough cough>

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Hurley [mailto:silvercat@dreamseeker.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:07 PM
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] Hey Colen


Greetings from a newcomer to the list (though not to Army Builder, nor 40K).

I play Dark Angels, and I have a small quibble with the Dark Angels
datafiles (v2.0 Pattern Alpha). Specifically, with the way it handles the
Master/Grand Master of the Deathwing.

A quote form his rule entry, P6, Codexark Angels

Master of the Deathwing: One Master or Grand Master may be made Master of
the Deathwing. He *must* be equipped with Terminator Armor, and may be given
any additional equipment allowed from the Dark Angels Armory. If accompanied
by a Command squad, then it must be upgraded to a Deathwing Command squad
(see Command squad entry opposite).

[emphasis mine]

Firstly, is he in fact a special character? I looked all through my codex,
and I found no mention of it. The Master of the Ravenwing mentions that he
is, both in the Dark Angels Hero section, and in his special rules. But
there is no such mention in the Master of the Deathwing entry.

Secondly, why does the AB entry for him give him his required terminator
armor for free? He is costed at 80 for a Grand Master, and 65 for a Master,
the same as his non-Deathwing compatriots. He should cost 25 points over the
non-upgraded characters (105pts / 90pts).

Thirdly, I'd like to thank everyone involved for producing these files, and
hope that just because my first public comment on them is a criticism, that
they realize that I enormously appreciate their time and effort.

Ian Argent, Member of the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels




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  #11 Reply With Quote
silvercat at dreamseeker.
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Old August 8th, 2000, 05:59 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthius" <Mathius@ticnet.com>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 21:44
Subject: RE: [AB] Hey Colen


> That's it.. grab the flamers.... set the torpedoes... ramming speed!
>
> Hey, if we didn't have people to point things out.. it wouldn't get fixed

> heh..
>
> I'm sure Colen loves all the love mail he gets although I know he's
> getting ready for Gen Con so he probably won't get to it for atleast a
week
>
>
> We won't hold it against you though ... we're mostly a good bunch of
> folks... <cough cough>
>
> Matt
>
I happened to be pointing up a 2 kilopoint army for a con soonish, and
noticed the error. I've been playing a 1500-point army in the local league,
with a Deathwing contingent (and they called me MAD to put a 300-point,
5-man squad AND a 259-point transport in a 1500 point army. MAD I say! ...
ahem), and the generally positive experience I had with that has led me to
want to put a Terminator-armored command squad aboard a Crusader for the 2K
list. Hence the sudden interest in the discrepancies in the AB file for the
Master of the Deathwing.

(Besides, I am halfway through building a Terminator-armored Standard
Bearer).

Oooh, hey. Further question... I just noticed that the Iron Halo does not
have a Terminator-allowed star next to it. Correct? Incorrect? Hallucinatory
tendencies on my part? Any idea why not, given that Artificer armor is
cheaper and doesn't have any of the side effects of terminator armor, and is
still allowed to take it?

Ian Argent, Initiate of the Inner Circle




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  #12 Reply With Quote
moser at cse.unsw.edu.au
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Old August 8th, 2000, 06:10 PM
I'm sure Colen appreciates the feedback too - its the only way things get
fixed. That said, however...

Maybe I misinterpreted the purpose of this list when I signed up, but
wouldn't it make much more sense to just send these comments to Colen? I
signed up hoping to hear about other people's tricks and advice for writing
data files, but instead it just seems to be a continuous argument about
wether or not various datafiles have "got it right". I mean, if hes got it
wrong, theres not much I'm going to do about it, is there? So whats the
point of telling me (and a couple of hundred other people)?

So someone set me straight; is this list a forum for Army Builder datafile
writing, or is it a forum for discussing the foibles of specific datafiles
that happen to be written in AB? Or is it both?

- rob.

Matthius quoth:
>
> I'm sure Colen loves all the love mail he gets although I know he's
> getting ready for Gen Con so he probably won't get to it for atleast a week
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Hurley [mailto:silvercat@dreamseeker.org]
[...]
> Thirdly, I'd like to thank everyone involved for producing these files, and
> hope that just because my first public comment on them is a criticism, that
> they realize that I enormously appreciate their time and effort.

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  #13 Reply With Quote
silvercat at dreamseeker.
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Old August 8th, 2000, 06:36 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Moser" <moser@cse.unsw.edu.au>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 22:09
Subject: RE: [AB] Hey Colen


>
> I'm sure Colen appreciates the feedback too - its the only way things get
> fixed. That said, however...
>
> Maybe I misinterpreted the purpose of this list when I signed up, but
> wouldn't it make much more sense to just send these comments to Colen? I
> signed up hoping to hear about other people's tricks and advice for
writing
> data files, but instead it just seems to be a continuous argument about
> wether or not various datafiles have "got it right". I mean, if hes got
it
> wrong, theres not much I'm going to do about it, is there? So whats the
> point of telling me (and a couple of hundred other people)?
>
> So someone set me straight; is this list a forum for Army Builder datafile
> writing, or is it a forum for discussing the foibles of specific datafiles
> that happen to be written in AB? Or is it both?
>
> - rob.

Sorry about that. I guess my comment was a combined question: First, is this
a bug, or am I misreading my codex? And second, if it is a bug, what can be
done about it?

I have figured out that the point costs for the characters can be edited
trivially in ABCreator, and the 'special character' flag isn't too hard to
work around...

And now for something a bit more technical... I'm curious why Deathwing
Terminators have their basic weapon set as the Power fist, with the Storm
Bolter being independently variable. Could the entry be set up so that the
basic Terminator weapon be the SB/PF combo, and each 'upgrade' replace that
combo? Basically, right now the Power Fist count is deducted automagically
when an upgrade is chosen, but the Storm Bolter count must be manually
deducted, or increased when squad members are added. Or would that produce
some odd output problems? Right now, I can add a terminator, give him a
single lightning claw, and he still has his power fist. For a slightly more
useful combination, I can give him a T-Hammer, and he still has his Power
Fist. Or I can be messing around with various options, and accidentally do
something of this sort. Or would this needlessly complicate the output?

It might be something to consider for the next version, to allow a squad
definition to have 2 basic weapons, which are deducted automagically, but
separately (I.e., to go back to the terminator example, if a Assault Cannon
is added to the squad, the SB count is reduced, while adding a Cyclone or
Chainfist reduces the PF count, and a TH/SS or 2xLC reduces both counts).

Ian Argent, Initiate of the Inner Circle


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  #14 Reply With Quote
shawn at electricstitch.c
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Old August 8th, 2000, 07:29 PM
I don't know if you can do two of them, but I don't see any reason why you
can't do what you suggest. I think it would be rather convient and easier to
read.

-+ Chain Fist
-+ Cyclone Missile Launcher
-+ Lighting Claw Pair
(-+) Power Fist
(-+) Storm Bolter
-+ Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
-+ Assault Cannon
-+ Heavy Flamer

The chainfist,cyclone subtracting one from powerfist.
The assault cannon, heavy flamer subtract one from storm bolter.
LC pair, TH/Storm Shield subtract one from both.

This would be better, right now you can take a lightning claw / thunder
hammer. (Not legally, of course)

Shawn Campbell

> It might be something to consider for the next version, to allow a squad
> definition to have 2 basic weapons, which are deducted automagically, but
> separately (I.e., to go back to the terminator example, if a
> Assault Cannon
> is added to the squad, the SB count is reduced, while adding a Cyclone or
> Chainfist reduces the PF count, and a TH/SS or 2xLC reduces both counts).
>


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demandred at skrill.org
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Old August 8th, 2000, 09:08 PM
One fine day in the middle of the night, Jonathan Hurley
<silvercat@dreamseeker.org> got up to write:

>Oooh, hey. Further question... I just noticed that the Iron Halo does not
>have a Terminator-allowed star next to it. Correct? Incorrect? Hallucinatory
>tendencies on my part? Any idea why not, given that Artificer armor is
>cheaper and doesn't have any of the side effects of terminator armor, and is
>still allowed to take it?

Presumably correct, since the Space Marine codex has been out for what?
18 months now, and they've not published a correction to it.

--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time

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demandred at skrill.org
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Old August 8th, 2000, 09:08 PM
One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Moser
<moser@cse.unsw.edu.au> got up to write:

>I'm sure Colen appreciates the feedback too - its the only way things get
>fixed. That said, however...
>
>Maybe I misinterpreted the purpose of this list when I signed up, but
>wouldn't it make much more sense to just send these comments to Colen? I
>signed up hoping to hear about other people's tricks and advice for writing
>data files, but instead it just seems to be a continuous argument about
>wether or not various datafiles have "got it right". I mean, if hes got it
>wrong, theres not much I'm going to do about it, is there? So whats the
>point of telling me (and a couple of hundred other people)?
>
>So someone set me straight; is this list a forum for Army Builder datafile
>writing, or is it a forum for discussing the foibles of specific datafiles
>that happen to be written in AB? Or is it both?

It's both. Anything to do with Army Builder is 'on-topic'; whether it's
discussing the 40k / FB / whatever datafiles or AB itself. If someone
says "I found bug X" then there's a load of people who can say "That was
fixed ages ago" or "that's how the rules work". Plus it means that when
I'm not around, some questions can still get answered.

--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time

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  #17 Reply With Quote
demandred at skrill.org
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Old August 8th, 2000, 09:08 PM
One fine day in the middle of the night, Jonathan Hurley
<silvercat@dreamseeker.org> got up to write:

>And now for something a bit more technical... I'm curious why Deathwing
>Terminators have their basic weapon set as the Power fist, with the Storm
>Bolter being independently variable. Could the entry be set up so that the
>basic Terminator weapon be the SB/PF combo, and each 'upgrade' replace that
>combo?

It *could*, but that would require a load of options like:

Storm Bolter and Power Fist
Storm Bolter and Storm Shield
Storm Bolter and Haddock of Doom
Storm Bolter and Power Weapon
Heavy Flamer and Power Fist
Heavy Flamer and Storm Shield
Heavy Flamer and Haddock of Doom
etc.

Which is quite frankly very boring to program.

>Basically, right now the Power Fist count is deducted automagically
>when an upgrade is chosen, but the Storm Bolter count must be manually
>deducted, or increased when squad members are added. Or would that produce
>some odd output problems? Right now, I can add a terminator, give him a
>single lightning claw, and he still has his power fist. For a slightly more
>useful combination, I can give him a T-Hammer, and he still has his Power
>Fist. Or I can be messing around with various options, and accidentally do
>something of this sort. Or would this needlessly complicate the output?

It can't be done because the rmdr: attribute, which controls the
automatic deduction thing, only works once per unit. It's a limitation
of Army Builder, not the datafiles.

--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time

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demandred at skrill.org
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Old August 15th, 2000, 09:02 AM
One fine day in the middle of the night, doublenot7@aol.com got up to
write:

>I detachment of Catachan Devils may be taken by any IG army, I dont believe
>the Catachan Assault Squads may be taken by any other than Catachans.

IIRC it says they can in the front of the Catachan codex...

--
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Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
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demandred at skrill.org
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Old August 15th, 2000, 11:49 AM
One fine day in the middle of the night, Shawn Campbell
<shawn@electricstitch.com> got up to write:

>I don't know if you can do two of them,

You can't.

>but I don't see any reason why you
>can't do what you suggest.

The rmdr: attribute that controls the funky stuff is specifically
limited to one per unit. Changing it would take ages and not be worth
the effort, according to Rob.

--
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Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
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