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MNBlockHead
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Old August 31st, 2017, 12:02 AM
Based on the FAQ, they have taken a very reasonable approach. You won't have to rebuy your content to use HLO, the subscription is very reasonably priced, HL Classic will continue getting support.

If they could only get an official license for 5e content, I would happily sign up. As it is, I don't think I'd subscribe just to get the SRD content...unless the tactical console would automatically update payers' character sheets live.

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EightBitz
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Old August 31st, 2017, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlockHead View Post
Based on the FAQ, they have taken a very reasonable approach. You won't have to rebuy your content to use HLO, the subscription is very reasonably priced, HL Classic will continue getting support.

If they could only get an official license for 5e content, I would happily sign up. As it is, I don't think I'd subscribe just to get the SRD content...unless the tactical console would automatically update payers' character sheets live.
I won't be signing up. There's no benefit for me. We use HL for character creation only. When I DM, I'm the only one who uses a tac console. I'm also the only one who uses RW for anything at all.

My players didn't even like it when I used a VTT on a big screen to display a battle map. Any subscription amount for HLO would just be a waste of money for me.
EightBitz is offline   #72
daplunk
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Old August 31st, 2017, 01:00 PM
I'm installing a network cable to my game room this weekend. Ive paid more for lunch in a single sitting that they are charging for a year. Happy to help keep the lights on.

There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.

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Toblakai
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Old August 31st, 2017, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk View Post
There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.
You might want to send an email to WoTC.. I suspect the holdup is not on LWD's end.
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daplunk
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Old August 31st, 2017, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toblakai View Post
You might want to send an email to WoTC.. I suspect the holdup is not on LWD's end.
I hope not honestly because that would indicate it's more unlikely for us ever to see licensed content. I'm hoping they are in discussions already and basically waiting to be able to show WOTC the RW content market, prove to them that their content is secure with the new secure content system and show off Hero Lab Online as a more appealing product for WOTC to get on board with.

Realm Works - Community Links
Realm Work and Hero Lab Videos
Ream Works Facebook User Group
CC3+ Facebook User Group

D&D 5e Community Pack - Contributor
General Hero Lab Support & Community Resources
D&D 5e Community Pack - Install Instructions / D&D 5e Community Pack - Log Fault / D&D 5e Community Pack - Editor Knowledge Base

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EightBitz
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Old August 31st, 2017, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk View Post
I'm installing a network cable to my game room this weekend. Ive paid more for lunch in a single sitting that they are charging for a year. Happy to help keep the lights on.

There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.
I'm happy to help keep the lights on as well, with the right model.

With Realm Works, for example, I'm currently enjoying free cloud access. I may or may not continue that when the content market goes live. It all depends on my financial situation at the time. But say that I don't. I still have full, unrestricted access to use the program locally. I can create content. I can view content. I can export content.

With HLO, if my subscription lapses, I'm in view-only mode. I can't create. I can't edit. Any data packages I don't share with HLC, I lose access to. If I have three data packages that aren't shared with HLC, that could total to as much as $120. And if my $2/mo subscription lapses, that's $120 worth of content that I can no longer access.

I'm just not a fan of that business model.
EightBitz is offline   #76
mallardduck
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 09:42 PM
I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.

I only use hl for character creation and in game playing of my own character on my iPad. If my group wanted a virtual tabletop we'd use one. None of the multiplayer features are of any interest, as only about half of us can afford to buy all the content packs, and unless the whole group uses it, none of those features are worth anything. That also eliminates convention or pfs use.

Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.

The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.

There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?

Last, I simply don't trust that 'classic' will be supported with all new content long term. First proof is the lack of starfinder support. They have created a false rationale to not do character creation and single player in game use by adding new requirements for multiplayer access that are feature only a subset of players use or want. they could easily provide char creation in both, but didn't in order to push their new platform. And that makes me very very suspicious. I've seen too many small development shops launch a new platform, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. A lost customer. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local/application solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability - and a long future for my gaming dollar investment.

Last edited by mallardduck; September 2nd, 2017 at 09:50 PM.
mallardduck is offline   #77
Toblakai
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mallardduck View Post
I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.
The subscription is not for profit, I suspect they will probably barely break even at $2/month.
So this point is mostly moot.

Quote:
Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.
You know everyone has their outages, so whats your point? High speed? They have already said it won't consume much bandwidth. Compared to a YouTube video it will be nothing. It's the 21st century, The world is getting more and more connected.
Quote:
The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.
PFS isn't that much fun anyways, j/k, not as much fun though. More than likely you will know that you are going to a convention, they don't typically just happen randomly. Print before you go.

Quote:
There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?
They are supporting all major browsers, its in the FAQ. Turn off the add block for PF, it's real easy to do. Your just coming up with more pointless arguments.
Quote:
For all that, my big concern is that I don't trust that 'classic' will be supported long term. I've seen too many small development shops do a transition, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability.
Again more pointless arguments, they are supporting HLC, and will for the foreseeable future I'm sure. Now if 98% of their usage is HLO in 5 years, they may change their mind.

Last edited by Toblakai; September 2nd, 2017 at 10:10 PM.
Toblakai is offline   #78
DeltaMasterMind
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 412

Old September 3rd, 2017, 02:27 AM
Hell I don't blame mallardduck for his views on HLO as a-lot of developers have done in the real world as he has expressed concerns about. The more content, that we shell money out for, they put behind a paywall the more customers will get angry, simple truth. Two code bases can be very difficult to maintain and currently the HLO business model will not pay for that and we all know it needs to be paid for to be supported. Considering that model I assume the market will get to decide on which base gets the support in the long term.

I personally want HLO to become something bigger than roll20(dot)net in the form of maptools and such additions. A full encompassing system like that would be grand for me as I do want to have an entire digital interface for all aspects of the game system that can be allowed. Realm Works with HLO tactical console and maptool integrated APIs would be a grand dream for me. If this is a possible path then I would be all for supporting HLO, but that is a very huge undertaking. I seriously have my doubts they have a size-able enough development team for such a project and to maintain multiple game code bases.

I will be keeping a close eye on this for the foreseeable future.
DeltaMasterMind is offline   #79
Gobrious
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 17

Old September 4th, 2017, 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mallardduck View Post
I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.

I only use hl for character creation and in game playing of my own character on my iPad. If my group wanted a virtual tabletop we'd use one. None of the multiplayer features are of any interest, as only about half of us can afford to buy all the content packs, and unless the whole group uses it, none of those features are worth anything. That also eliminates convention or pfs use.

Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.

The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.

There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?

Last, I simply don't trust that 'classic' will be supported with all new content long term. First proof is the lack of starfinder support. They have created a false rationale to not do character creation and single player in game use by adding new requirements for multiplayer access that are feature only a subset of players use or want. they could easily provide char creation in both, but didn't in order to push their new platform. And that makes me very very suspicious. I've seen too many small development shops launch a new platform, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. A lost customer. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local/application solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability - and a long future for my gaming dollar investment.
I feel the same way. I have spent hundreds of dollars for Pathfinder content, but as it stands, I will not be spending a penny on Hero Labs Online for StarFinder, and I'm liking StarFinder more than Pathfinder.

I have 4 weekly games, at two of them I don't have access to the internet. So I wouldn't be able to use Hero Labs Online half the time when I can use it all 4 times with the "Classic" version. Sometimes the classics are just better.

I like some of the online features IF everyone at the table has a tablet or laptop, guess what, not always the case.
Gobrious is offline   #80
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