Hello, a question about map making

[Broley]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, or if it's something I should already 'know' by now but I couldn't narrow it down enough. While I have been playing RPG's since the 70's, it's only in the last few months that I've started using the computer to help run things, it's always been PnP.

So anyway, as soon as I get a new laptop I'll be getting Realm Works to go along with Hero Lab, but there's a couple things I'm not clear on and I'm hoping those more experienced can guide me.

I know that Realm Works uses, I think they're called Bit Maps, and I'm sure there are web sites I can buy pre-made area maps and I'm sure that would be helpful for building dungeons and cities, I'm more interested in creating world maps.

Let me please describe my "Dream Map Maker" and perhaps you folks can tell me if such a thing exists.

I imagine a map maker that I can use to create the "World" map letting me shape the world (or at least the main adventure area/world/continent/whatever) placing major mountain ranges, forests, major cities and large trade route roads and the like. Then I'd be able to zoom in on an area for smaller details like smaller roads, rivers and stream, towns and villages. Then zoom in closer for fine details and landmarks. And then I'd be able to create underground areas like caves and dungeons and lastly street view maps of cities and towns .. even hopefully interiors of buildings as well.

So basically I'm hoping a program exists that does damn near everything map-wise. I know, google is my friend, but every program I find blows their own horn so loud it's hard to tell which actually does what I would want.

So I've come to you all asking for your experienced guidance.

Thank you

Signed - The Stupid new Guy

[mirtos]

You wouldn't want something like that. That level of zooming on a single map would be an immensely large file, even compressed. I mean in theory, with a lot of work, and the learning curve, you could do it with campaign cartographer, but not as simple as you're describing. But the idea of zooming in and out on a single map file would be a big mistake. What you'd rather have is multiple maps, with hyper links at the zoom, so it's actually multiple map files. However, once you export the maps out of the applications, you lose the links between the maps in your mapping program as you have image files, and you want to create the same pins for the interactivity in RW.

[Maidhc O Casain]

For maps like you describe, you want (IMO) Campaign Cartographer. That is, as far as I know, the top of the heap for "do everything" fantasy mapping.

You could make your world map, placing geographical features, roads, markers for cities, etc. and zoom in or out to whatever detail level you wish. You can even put hotlinks on the city (or other location markers) and link them to a detailed map of that location, so that clicking on the city marker opens a map of that city.

The learning curve is steep if you want to do everything - but it has to be, for the program to handle everything.

CC files are not 'readable' by RealmWorks as images - you have to save your map as an image file. As mirtos said, you wouldn't want a map that detailed for RealmWorks - the resolution would have to be so high to make it usable that it would bog down the program to uselessness.

I use CC to make my maps, then save parts of that map as image files (jpeg, usually) for use in RealmWorks. That way I've got all the detail I want for my reference, and I get pretty maps for the players that are usable in RealmWorks.

A google search for Campaign Cartographer will get you to the ProFantasy website, where it's sold.

MapTools is a perfectly acceptable alternative - not quite as sophisticated, and free where CC is quite pricey if you want all the bells and whistles.

[Joe]

mirtos' explanation of how to do it in Realm Works is correct. You definitely want multiple "tiers" of maps. As an example, the "real world":

A zoomed out, globe view with a map pin for each continent (Europe, North America, Africa, etc). Clicking the pin links you to the topic for that continent, which has a more detailed map of just that continent, with pins for important regions, countries, etc. You can repeat this pattern as deeply as needed for your setting, finding a balance between nesting depth and individual map complexity.

The ideal solution the OP mentions sounds a lot like Google maps. I admit, this would be awesome to have for a setting. However, not only is this a ton of engineering work, it would be extra work for you to set up! One of the reasons we use simple images with basic overlays is their accessibility. Anyone can download a map image from the internet for their favorite setting and import it. Allowing for dynamic level of detail introduces a whole new level of complexity.

[mirtos]

By the way, my explanation is easy to do with CC3 (campaign cartogrpaher) once you et used to the tool. I create my global map, and then create hyperlink in CC that generates the next level map. Each one gets saved to a file (i prefer png myself). Ten when i put in RealmsWorks I do the same pins that i created the hyperlinks for in CC3.

Yes, it is a little costly. And it DOES have a big learning curve, but im a big fan of it. That being said, I have never used MapTools (which is not the same as RPTools Maptool program - to be honest on google im not even sure where to find it)

[Acenoid]

I think there is a program called hexographer that is able to put maps into maps. It's probably much simpler than CC and theres a free version to try out.

http://www.hexographer.com/

[Maidhc O Casain]

I've used Hexographer, and really liked it. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that CC does, but it's an excellent mapping tool nonetheless.

[Viking2054]

Campaign Cartographer 3 is great, I also use it for all of my mapping. However, if your going to use Realm Works for campaign management and information control, I would forget creating hyperlinks inside CC3. Creating Hyperlinks inside CC3 and then again using pins inside RW strikes me as overly redundant and a lot of extra work.

If I were you, I would start out with a fairly rough world map with the continents and major islands on it. Then I'd pick the continent you are going to be running your campaign on and do a more detailed map of that continent with kingdoms and maybe capital cities or major cities placed on it. After that, I might do a more detailed map of a single kingdom possibly with a little bleed over into adjacent kingdoms just so you can show that beyond this point is another kingdom. Next I'd create the city, town, or village where the players are going to start at (or are currently at). Last is doing maps for any other locations you need for your next game session (or few game sessions).

Export your maps to either Jpeg or Png format... whichever you prefer. You may need to play with the resolution so that the files aren't too big for RW. I don't remember the file size, but I believe Rob mentioned the current maximum file size you can import into RW without breaking/bogging down the program (might of been 4 MB but I'm not sure on that).

Link things as you need with pins inside RW. Your going to be using it for your campaign management anyway.

Some info you should be aware of:

The base Campaign Cartographer program is set up for Fantasy Overland mapping. There are add-on programs for cities (City Designer 3), dungeons (Dungeon Designer 3), Space (Cosmographer 3) character portraits and tokens (Character Artist 3). There are also add on artwork packages and things they call Symbol Sets and Annuals that are optional. It can be quite expensive if you want everything, especially if you want it all at once.

Next, they are working on an enhanced version of CC3 they are calling CC3+ I'd check to see if buying CC3 now guarantees you receive CC3+ for free down the road. Long time users that didn't buy the Character Artist add on when they were running a special with the free CC3+ upgrade will have to pay an upgrade fee to go to CC3+ and I believe that special is long over.

feel free to check them out at Profantasy.com

Oh, almost forgot. The learning curve for CC3 is steep. I have a friend that is also a GM, tried it out and he just couldn't work his mind around doing things inside the program. I even walked him through creating maps several times. He gave up and considered the program a waste of money for him. For me, it wasn't anywhere near as hard since I've done a little architectural drawing in my past and I like to play with software and figure out how to make it do things I want. I may also be a little more visually artistic then my friend also since I've been drawing on and off most of my life.

Also, just my opinion... skip anything that asks you to put in contours or altitude information. I decided late in my CC2 days that it just wasn't needed. The important parts are coastlines, rivers, mountains and then colored areas for plains, deserts, jungles and forests that you can put symbols on to assist in that representation. Then you use whatever other symbols you need depending on the type of map your creating.

[Chemlak]

Going to agree with everyone else on Campaign Cartographer. A few years ago I shelled out for it, plus most of the add-ons. It's totally worth the expense and complexity to be able to make beautiful maps at any scale.

The different scales of my maps (used in my home game):

Planet-wide.
Continental.
Country.
City.
Building.

I rattled off a simple dungeon in about 2 hours, using the Dungeon Designer add-on, a few weeks ago. The rooms had torches, furniture, pillars, there was a raised dais in there somewhere. After I switched on the sheet effects, it looked like a proper map you'd find in an adventure. A little tweaking on the export settings and I had a battle-map that I used in Roll20 for the adventure. 3 game sessions on a beautifully rendered map that I almost literally threw together. With the dungeon key held in Realm Works, and the encounters planned out in Hero Lab.

I do love me some decent digital tools.

[mirtos]

Originally Posted by Viking2054

Campaign Cartographer 3 is great, I also use it for all of my mapping. However, if your going to use Realm Works for campaign management and information control, I would forget creating hyperlinks inside CC3. Creating Hyperlinks inside CC3 and then again using pins inside RW strikes me as overly redundant and a lot of extra work.

thats a completely fair point.

The only reason i like doing is when im doing my work in CC3, it makes it eay to get to the maps i easily want when doing three or four changes. Your mileage may vary of course.