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muzzyman1981
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Old November 21st, 2008, 01:15 PM
Why don't the Space Wolves have Sgt Chronus as a vehicle option?

He is a vehicle upgrade and since Space Wolves take most of our vehicles and upgrade from the Space Marine Codex we should therefore be able to choose him as an option...obviously it would be a "count as" situation but all the same...
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jlong05
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Old November 21st, 2008, 02:24 PM
I am not sure about this. Chronos is a named character for codex SM army. He doesn't appear is the SW Codex, so I dont think he or the other Special characters should be available for SW armies. SW armies have their own special characters.

The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 21st, 2008, 04:19 PM
However he isn't a Special Character, he is a vehicle upgrade. If he was an Elite unit or HQ unit I would agree but he is neither....he is a vehicle upgrade. Space Wolves must and can take any vehicle upgrade from the SM Codex except for the Venerable Dreadnought and the Leman Russ Exterminator.

You could make him an Iron Priest upgrade to the armor choices in a Space Wolf army, that is what Chronus is equal to.
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Ghaz
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Old November 21st, 2008, 09:26 PM
Do you see Chronus listed in any of the vehicle entries as an upgrade? Chronus is NOT a vehicle upgrade. He is a unit with a separate army list entry that must be assigned to a tank in the army.

As to whether or not he is a 'special character', please read the rules for special characters on page 49 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook and you will see that he most definitely fits the description given. What position he takes on the Force Organization chart is inconsequential.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 03:44 AM
His stat box is setup the same as the Servitors for a Teachmarine and for Sgt Telion for the Scout Sgt...they are all upgrades for their respective units. The reason it doesn't say that he is an upgrade in the armor's upgrade list is because in his profile his box is shaded just like the other stat'd upgrade units.

It is that shaded box that covers his profile that signifies he is an upgrade, otherwise why have the shaded box? He is a general upgrade for armor. How else would you class his profile and therefore the rest of the unit profiles set up the same as his? You might say Sgt Chronus and Sgt Telion are special characters but that wouldn't explain why servitor's (which are definately not special characters) profiles are shown the same way as the others.

The biggest reason I would say that he is an upgrade is that under no circumstances can you take those units that have the grey boxes seperately from the units they are assigned to. You cannot take Sgt Telion on his own or give him to a Tac Squad, you can't give servitors to a Company Captain....they must be given to their assigned units, and since they are NOT in the Unit Composition section of the profiles AND they may be given optionally they must be considered as upgrades to those units.

I know the reluctance of not giving them, mainly because he is named and has Ultramarine markings all over his armor but the truth is you can use Sgt Telion and Sgt Chronus is other Chapters just fine as "counted as". If you use the reasoning above then he would be considered an upgrade to Space Marine armor, Space Wolves use the Space Marine Codex for their armor choices, with two exceptions, Space Wolves must therefore use the upgrades from the Space Marine Codex....ergo Space Wolves can use Sgt Chronus (they cannot use Sgt Telion as he is an upgrade for a SCOUT SGT which Space Wolves don't have and we can't use servitors because our Iron Priests have Thralls, the same thing).

Lastly, in the Space Marine Codex, it states that armies that follow the Codex Astartes may take special characters from the Space Marine Codex to be "counted as". By the two posts given, Sgt Chronus is a special character. Admittedly the Space Wolves place very little value in the Codex Astartes they do however technically follow it and therefore can take special characters. The matter that we have special characters in our Codex is beside the point. If you follow the reasoning that we already have our own SCs then no other Chapter may any other's SCs.

In conclusion, this game is supposed to be fun, I would like to use AB to make the game fun but if I have to explain at every game that the reason why my 1850pt army is short by 70pts and the reason being is that AB wouldn't let me put Sgt Chronus in the list would take some of the fun out of the game. Sgt Chronus could easily be "Counted as" an Iron Priest upgrade in the Space Wolf section.
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Ghaz
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 05:36 AM
Quote:
It is that shaded box that covers his profile that signifies he is an upgrade, otherwise why have the shaded box?
He's still not an upgrade. Nothing in the codex says that he's an upgrade. It's nothing more than an assumption on your part that he's an upgrade. Where does the codex say that a shaded box means he's an upgrade. It does not. Maybe they used the shaded box because they thought it looked pretty, but nothing supports your claims. If he were an upgrade, he'd be listed with the other upgrades.

Quote:
The biggest reason I would say that he is an upgrade is that under no circumstances can you take those units that have the grey boxes seperately from the units they are assigned to.
And that still does not make them upgrades. It's not the first time that you've been required to field one unit to unlock another, or would you say that an Imperial Assassin is an upgrade for an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord?

Quote:
I know the reluctance of not giving them, mainly because he is named and has Ultramarine markings all over his armor but the truth is you can use Sgt Telion and Sgt Chronus is other Chapters just fine as "counted as".
Other Chapters that use Codex Space Marines ONLY. Space Wolves do not use Codex Space Marines only. They take what units their codex says that they can and no more.

Quote:
Lastly, in the Space Marine Codex, it states that armies that follow the Codex Astartes may take special characters from the Space Marine Codex to be "counted as".
And Codex Space Wolves have a strict list of what units may be taken and Chronus nor any of the other special characters are listed.

Quote:
In conclusion, this game is supposed to be fun...
And a game has RULES to9 ensure that both players have fun, not just one at the expense of the other. Anyway, your mistaking the datafiles as the game. So go have fun playing the game, but don't expect the datafiles to allow you to create an illegal army.
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muzzyman1981
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 06:19 AM
I have given my reasonings behind why Space Wolves believe he is an upgrade. I don't wish to try and "cheese" my army. I'm sure I will have fun without him, but at the same time I wish to have all the options I can when I make my lists.

Yes, my views are an interpretation of the rules and profiles, but I believe them to be correct as do many of my Wolf-brothers and many others that do not play Space Wolves.

One last point, why can't the Space Wolves have what amounts the same character? It's been said we have our own special characters. The Ultramarines had their own special characters before this new Codex but they were given more with the new Codex...why can't the rest of the Space Marine Chapters receive the same? You will say that other Chapters that use ONLY the SM Codex can but those that have a seperate Codex are stuck with what they have within the pages. Why must that be? Space Wolves only have 3 special characters. Why can't we have Sgt Chronus be a basic Iron Priest with the same profile? In the Space Marine Codex it says that other Chapters have unique characters that are the "same" as the special characters in the Space Marine Codex....it would stand to reason that those who use other Codexes would have equals as well.

*EDIT*
The Army Builder program has Sgt Chronus as an upgrade as seen in the following picture:

That came from the sm5EDat.dat file.
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cervidal
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 12:29 PM
He's done as an upgrade in Army Builder as a matter of functionality, not that he is actually a vehicle upgrade.

He is not available to the Space Wolves' army because he is not a vehicle upgrade. He is a unit selected by someone using Codex: Space Marines. That he is then assigned to a vehicle is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion.

Space Wolves use wargear from Codex: Space Marines. They do not use units from Codex: Space Marines except where directly noted in Codex: Space Wolves.
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Ghaz
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 12:30 PM
And again, you're reasoning is flawed. He's not an upgrade. The vehicle upgrades are listed in the vehicle's army list entry under the heading "Options". He's not there, hence he's not an upgrade. He's a separate unit with his own requirements. Your entire argument is that he's an upgrade because you say so, yet you can't explain why he's not listed with the other upgrades.

And trying to claim he is just because the datafile authors chose to use an exisiting category to insure that he validates properly just goes to show how desparate you are. How he's programmed in the datafiles is inconsequential. He's not an upgrade, and he can't be taken by an army in a different codex unless that codex or it's FAQ says so.
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Grey_Mage
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:01 PM
Im sorry, but you need to open the codex before you call Muzzy a liar. You might even read the entry for commander chronus on pg 89 of Codex SM.

"Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank (see the army list). Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

First paragraph below his stats under the special rules column. He IS an upgrade, by GW's own words so please dont pull some BS about other people trying to make illegal lists or not following the rules unless you can back it up.

Since Space Wolves can use any of the vehicle upgrades from C:SM on any units they take from C:SM *Ie all but the vendread and leman russ* they obviously must be able to take the upgrade- Commander Chronus. That he is in effect a special character or a unique choice or what have you is irrelelvant. There is nothing in either codex that says you cant take something as a space wolf because its named or unique, it simply lists the guidelines of what CAN be taken, wich chronus fits.

Enjoy gentlemen.
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