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MNBlockHead
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Old June 7th, 2015, 09:22 PM
I'm not familiar with Tabletop Simulator, but it looks like a platform to make games and play them. RealmWorks is not a virtual tabletop program, it is a campaign-info management platform. But I think your main point relates to the way content is or is not shared and sold. To begin with, the marketplace *will* eventually fulfill the role of users being able to create and share or sell content. It just isn't ready yet. We are all waiting for it to be released as it will allow us do many things we cannot at this time—including sharing content.

Regarding your suggestion that LWD loosen up on content protections, I don't expect that you'll see that for awhile. The viability of RW depends on their ability to sell cloud subscriptions and pre-created content. They first need to focus their development on creating an environment that will allow reasonable sharing and integration of content while giving content creators assurances that RW is not being used to facilitate pirating of their content.

Initially, that may require some policing, but I think the approach is more to let the technology handle most of this. LWD is a small company and can't hire people to ensure the copyright status of all content shared on the market. As the CM grows, at most they'll be able to comply with take-down notices and respond to community reporting of infringement.

Unfortunately, this means that we cannot print or export any content and have to wait on the CM. These feature will come, but they have to work out the technical aspects of the copyright protections. Once they have that foundation and once the CM goes live, then they'll be in a position to add export and print functionality.

I understand that this is frustrating. For many people, RW just isn't going to be an appropriate tool for them until they can print and export their data. It is costing them some business now. But telling them that they should, therefore, forget about their content contributors' IP rights is not a good business strategy.

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Last edited by MNBlockHead; June 7th, 2015 at 09:27 PM. Reason: corrected typos
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azomboid
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Old June 9th, 2015, 04:40 AM
Replay to MNBlockHead: had to make a new account cause i lost my password and reset link didn't work.... What is Realm Works if not a platform for making games... heck there will be a content market to sell your own adventures... if a world with characters, story, goals, and quests that takes place with a copyrighted set of rules isn't a game it's at least pretty similar of a construct. Secondly... will is a who knows when scenario and to the point of this thread we can now trade modules with a workaround the only issue being it replaces your core data. So, you basically start with the building blocks you need to customize it to your liking.... so we already barely need the store. Honestly I don't think it will be much time before a group of frustrated users works on breaking the encryption...

To the second point, LWD wont loosen up on content restrictions I will disagree on the interpretation of reasonable sharing as it seems to be implied to me in this response. Simply put there are no assurances that can be made... There is no way to add a export feature that doesn't directly give an easy way to pirate material... I believe this to be a fact and I challenge anyone proficient to name a method that has given a user the ability to control their own data and hasn't been able to be pirated from in some form or another. So, to simply say well we just have to wait for them to secure it... well a several billion dollars a year industry called video gaming tried and ultimately gave up when it came to DRM on computer gaming... that's why the industry model has largely shifted to a micro transaction economy.

To your third point... I addressed policing in my last post I think... It's a perfectly acceptable, legal, and frankly wise decision to react to content infringement as oppose to try and regulate it from the start. This is why the courts give time to companies to adhere to takedown requests.

This was really I suppose the main crux of my post... I don't believe they will ever find a way to add an export feature with the security implements they talk about.... They say well what if people but content then share it without authorization? What stops me from doing that now... simply taking one of my modules in my EotE books... typing it up... saving it as a backup... sending it to my friend... he loads it up... now he has a pirated version of that module.... By the way that workaround took me two days to find and figure out from the time I started trying and I am by no means a really big tech guy. That being said... two days... if piracy is their real concern they clearly aren't trying that hard. If you output the data they can't control it! So this whole argument about copyright imo has nothing to do with the actual rights of the content creator and everything about them pulling a EA and deciding you have to use their portal to access your data so they can charge you for it. EA had to change that model after the most recent Sim City disaster if you may remember the outrage about that. The argument there of course being well if I buy this game that is inherently a offline single player game... why then do I have to be connected to EA servers...
I feel the same way about this program at the moment... from my point of view they just want to control the data I put in this thing cause they want to monetize it with no regard of how I may actually want to use it. Rather than perhaps selling access to the store or servers on their own merit. That being said I understand the need for a different business model however I don't see this being the solution as it will drive more people away then anything imo. Anyway I'm a rambling kinda guy and again sorry about that and sorry if I come off as uppity it's a bit of a heated issue for me as I am a big gamer and have been through similar things before with game companies.
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Viking2054
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Old June 9th, 2015, 07:01 PM
In my opinion, people who pirate are going to be severely frustrated having to backup their database and replace their database with yours or some other persons content. They won't be able to merge content like that either. At best, they will be able type in their own stuff to expand on another persons work. If you have hundreds of people doing that including the person who did the original data entry you are quickly going to have a confusing mess. Since you can't merge the data entry you will have hundreds of incompatible copies floating around and the pirates will just pull their hair out and throw the pirated software/content away... just my opinion. And if you force one guy to do all the work, don't you think he's going to get frustrated and bored for having to do it all himself and not getting anything out of it?

I think your also overlooking the databases GUID created by LWD's servers every time you create a new realm which you have to login to in order to create. If your GUID pops up in ten's, hundreds, or thousands of peoples databases when they login, don't you think they would twig to what was going on? I'd bet you'd end up with a banned account along with everyone that had those GUID's in their databases. No login, no new realms.

Your right, LWD can't stop piracy from happening. But, that's not their job. Making it hard to pirate and taking down pirated material when notified is in their best interest, though.

I'm sure in the long run, you will be able to share your own original content to your hearts content. But I'd be upset if you stole my unique content that I put up on the marketplace for a small fee.

You may be overlooking another aspect of piracy. Piracy doesn't hurt the big companies, they've got lots and lots of lawyers to sue your butt into oblivion. However, the little companies that may create a unique and fantastic product simply cease to exist and that game you loved or module series you loved goes away never to be expanded on again. You act like piracy is a victimless crime, it is not. People work hard to create content and share their imaginations with others in an intelligible manner. They deserve to be compensated for that hard work and you don't have the right to rob them of their livelihood.

You really should be begging the creators of EotE to jump in bed with LWD and put their content on the Realm Works marketplace so you could buy it ready to go. I'm sure LWD is trying to get as many game companies to give them licenses for their material so we can buy it. However, seeing posts in LWD's forums advocating piracy turns some of those companies away. Causing us all to either have to wait for them to come around and sell us their content, or else type it in ourselves. I won't dignify the piracy possibility.
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MNBlockHead
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Old June 9th, 2015, 07:07 PM
The inability to achieve perfect protection is not an argument for no protection. I really don't see any ulterior motives. You have the ability to keep your data local and work on it locally, even if you do not subscribe to the cloud service. The lock-in right now is that you have to use the software to access your data. That is what many people object to. I personally don't have a huge issue with it. If I were to decide to stop using RW and use another product, I suspect that even with export capabilities the amount of work needed to get the data into the new product would still be significant.

I'm more interested in printing than export. Right now I need to make sure any handouts are in PDF form so I can open them in Adobe Acrobat and print. I would rather not have to do that and be able to just print a topic or article directly. That fact that I can't print, however, is a minor inconvenience. For others that is not the case.

One user's priorities will differ from another's. I want calendars first, another needs printing now, but most users said journals. And before anything else, the CM need to be released. I would suggest you check back after the CM is released and see if RW better meets your needs once users are able to share and/or sell content.

RW Project: Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition homebrew world
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Parody
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Old June 9th, 2015, 07:56 PM
In the long run I think pirates would get sick of the hoops they have to jump through to (essentially) open a database file for each module/system and would go back to PDFs.

What we're seeing here is probably similar to how video streaming services got to where they are now. The major content creators required DRM, providers came up with some systems. The users wanted to be able to view things offline, so for some use cases the providers modified their systems. Not everything is available with every provider, so you have to either shop around to find everything you want to watch or just be happy with what works on the system you already have.

The Realm Works implementation and feature set in this regard is unlikely to change in the near future, so if you don't like it then I recommend not using Realm Works. If you bought it within 60 days they'll give you your money back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
You really should be begging the creators of EotE to jump in bed with LWD and put their content on the Realm Works marketplace so you could buy it ready to go.
I believe that FFG does not have that choice; their agreement with Disney/LucasFilm prevents digital content distribution. That's why there's no PDFs; Azombiod referenced it earlier when talking about violating copyright via scanned versions of the books.


Last edited by Parody; June 9th, 2015 at 08:07 PM.
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Dark Lord Galen
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Old June 10th, 2015, 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
In my opinion, people who pirate are going to be severely frustrated having to backup their database and replace their database with yours or some other persons content. ................
As they should!
Is not the real use of RW as a software (Not to speak for LWD) to create and maintain the data for your campaign world? We are talking WORLD building, not data manipulation a piece at a time.

This "AZombiod" person is simply trying to justify his need for instant gratification under the cloak of free access to data. This stance is already defined and it appears Azomboid already defines and supports it with the posts he has already made.. its called PIRACY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
I think your also overlooking the databases GUID created by LWD's servers every time you create a new realm which you have to login to in order to create. If your GUID pops up in ten's, hundreds, or thousands of peoples databases when they login, don't you think they would twig to what was going on? I'd bet you'd end up with a banned account along with everyone that had those GUID's in their databases. No login, no new realms.
Yep, quite correct Viking. unless Azombiod is successful in his campaigning to get someone else (see a theme here) to "crack the code" as he suggests, subplanting the encode of one for another.

I propose a new campaign, remove Azomboid from the site. ANY discussion on how to circumvent the protections of IP is, in the long run, counter productive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
Your right, LWD can't stop piracy from happening. But, that's not their job. Making it hard to pirate and taking down pirated material when notified is in their best interest, though.
And it gets harder when the community takes action against these shortcutting instant gratification bunch that are seeking a way to conveniently avoid the work it takes to build it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
You may be overlooking another aspect of piracy. Piracy doesn't hurt the big companies, they've got lots and lots of lawyers to sue your butt into oblivion. However, the little companies that may create a unique and fantastic product simply cease to exist and that game you loved or module series you loved goes away never to be expanded on again. You act like piracy is a victimless crime, it is not. People work hard to create content and share their imaginations with others in an intelligible manner. They deserve to be compensated for that hard work and you don't have the right to rob them of their livelihood.
## HEAR HEAR!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking2054 View Post
You really should be begging the creators of ............... .
And, as Parody has noted, IF the creator doesn't want to they have that right. And guess what, the only right you have is to do it yourself IF you acquired the original data legally.

Lastly, if IMO, I were to "put on the hat" of a potential LWD client that had IP that LWD wanted to included, the FIRST place I would conduct "due diligence on" would be LWD own forums to understand what type of people are LWD customers. I personally don't want someone like Azomboid leaving an impression in my behalf.

DLG

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AEIOU
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Old June 10th, 2015, 08:43 AM
If the proposed accumulation and dissemination of Star Wars material via RealmWorks would actually happen without the express permission of the rights holders, the ban hammer would come down hard and if it didn't stop, the Disney lawyers would wipe LWD from the planet faster than you can say Han Solo. The Disney legal team isn't something anyone wants to mess with and they vigorously defend their IP.

We would all lose because of someone's sense of entitlement....

If you disagree with the current copyright law, fight to change it. Donate to EFF. Lobby your legislator. Vote for candidates that will support your way of thinking. Work your way into senior management and use your influence to change the paradigm. If you choose to ignore the law, the law may not catch up with you; but it will impact a lot of other people and the ripple effect may have unforeseen VERY negative consequences like providing fodder to tighten copyright even further.

Think people. Follow your conscience. Would you want someone else to do unto you what you are doing unto them? Get out there and change the world -- it can't be done if you stick your head in the sand and expect someone else to do it for you.
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ShadowChemosh
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Old June 10th, 2015, 11:05 AM
Just adding my agreement with Viking2054, DLG, and AEIOU. You all said what I was thinking much better than I could have. And honestly much nicer as piracy of IP is a real hot button for myself.

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Chemlak
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Old June 10th, 2015, 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEIOU View Post
... if it didn't stop, the Disney lawyers would wipe LWD from the planet faster than you can say Han Solo. The Disney legal team isn't something anyone wants to mess with and they vigorously defend their IP.
Alternative version: Disney spent $4,000,000,000 acquiring Star Wars. The mere hundreds of thousands of dollars it would cost to completely wipe LWD from the face of the planet is chump change, and their legal responsibility and right.

Please do not advocate piracy.

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azomboid
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Old June 10th, 2015, 03:35 PM
If honestly banning me is a solution then I'd think the problems are a little bigger than just me... secondly, this whole thread not made by me is about the issue of the database's... So, I don't know that banning me solves the problem honestly however if the need arises I would understand. One of the major themes I've seen seems to be well what would someone get out of just loading up a module in a file... well the same thing they'd get out of a book plus the ability to manipulate data on the fly.. I really don't think it's as big of a setback to people as you may think but perhaps I'm incorrect. Another thing I'd like to make clear is I'm not advocating piracy, you can digitally backup content you own as the eote legally... it's why you can burn your own cd's or convert them to mp3 on your computer... Beyond that even, I'm simply pointing out what I perceive to be the holes in this anti piracy argument. Lastly, I'd like to mention that the said this is not a virtual table top and that the player edition is simply for players to access the data from the server. I personally didn't realize it lacked the feature for me to reveal information in real time... I should have watched more of the videos but in some of the videos they talk about trying to partner with someone to achieve this feature or group of features. The player edition I feel is a prime example of the data not being yours... I have to buy the player edition for my players to have any access to the data in any form not simply to use the servers. In that sense they are charging me for the single way to access my own data and that was more the point about the EA comparison. Anyhow, forgive me if I come off as uncivil, I do sign petitions and write letters as I am a big believer in the democratic system. Can't change things if you're legislators don't know how you feel and you don't vote. However, if I offended anyone I'm sorry and I hope we can discuss this without it being hate filled.
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