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Azhrei
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Old March 8th, 2019, 10:04 AM
Yes, that's part of my argument.

My character has a +19 on Perception (I think) so I should be able to know there's an invisible someone in the room with me, although adding to the DC because of combat is reasonable (maybe a +2 for being distracted, and even another +2 if I'm focused on combatants across the room and the invisible someone is behind me).

My point to the GM is simply that there should've been a reactive check available. Being able to show that with a roll of 20 my character can detect "a group of goblins moving across hard rock two weeks ago" would go a long ways towards showing that my character should at least have the chance of detecting an invisible someone.
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Farling
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Old March 8th, 2019, 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azhrei View Post
Being able to show that with a roll of 20 my character can detect "a group of goblins moving across hard rock two weeks ago" would go a long ways towards showing that my character should at least have the chance of detecting an invisible someone.
That would be Survival skill for tracking, not Perception :-)

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Farling
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Old March 8th, 2019, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minous View Post
In PF there is a flat DC 20 to notice that there is an invisible creature within 30 feet. (that doesnt tell you where, just that there is) the GM screen lists a few too.
The rulebook says that Invisible creatures get +20 on their Sneak roll.

Where is the rule that a flat DC 20 to know something nearby is invisible?

Farling

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ShadowChemosh
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Old March 8th, 2019, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
The rulebook says that Invisible creatures get +20 on their Sneak roll.

Where is the rule that a flat DC 20 to know something nearby is invisible?
HERE under the special ability Invisibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack.
Invisibility rules are in several spots in the rule book and its easy to not have them all memorized.

I advise being nice about this topic with the DM. They have allot on their plates and to not have known about this obscure rule is totally possible. Players too often take these mistakes as personal attacks and they are not. After a game its fine to nicely point out a mistake so the DM can become better. As seen in this very thread not everyone knows about these rules.

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Minous
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Old March 8th, 2019, 11:59 AM
CRB pg 563 A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack.
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Azhrei
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Old March 9th, 2019, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
I advise being nice about this topic with the DM.
Good advice, in general.

Quote:
After a game its fine to nicely point out a mistake so the DM can become better. As seen in this very thread not everyone knows about these rules.
I agree. I have a rule that if I think the GM may have misruled something, I point it out, and will explain if I'm asked, but I drop it until after the game.

That's how I like players to do it when I'm the GM, and I know that I can forget stuff too, so I don't want to discourage them from pointing it out.
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Azhrei
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Old March 9th, 2019, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
That would be Survival skill for tracking, not Perception :-)
I wasn't following the tracks, I was just pointing out that I had found them.

From https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/survival/
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0pfsrd.org
To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the same DCs, but you can’t use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.
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Azhrei
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Old March 9th, 2019, 03:37 PM
In general, the invisibility rules are a mess. Has PF2 cleaned them up? I certainly hope so!

(When you combine the text from the Perception and Stealth skills, the invisibility spell, the Invisible and Incorporeal definitions, and various feats like Blindfight, there are some peculiar inconsistencies.)

But it's a game. Grin and bear it.
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