Community Files

[Dervish]

not upset frodie just informing

[Frodie]

Just a thought, maybe a way to go, is to use the 3.5 srd to fill in some of the blanks.

Find a feat in the 3.5 that is similar to the 5e feat and use that until LW can get a official licence. It's kind of a band-aid approach, but the advantage is the 3.5 is open and we might be able to port some over from the 3.5 files.

Just an idea, it might work for feats, races, ect.

[MNBlockHead]

At this point, I wouldn't share the non-SRD content, without someone from WoTC telling me in writing that it was okay. BUT what WOULD be helpful, would be discussing HOW to implement certain non-SRD content on my own, for my own use. Heck putting the whole licensing issue aside, if I make my own feat as part of my home rules, I'd need to created it in HL regardless of whether WoTC licenses all the content to LWD. So, MagicSNs comments are helpful in terms of letting me know what is and isn't possible.

I'm still working through the basics, like how to code in the number of charges for an ability where the number of charges per rest are based on an attribute modifier.

I'm a little disheartened to learn that it may not be possible for some feats to be coded in. I don't know enough about the program yet to even fully understand what he is talking about. At this point I'm still working on getting a single character created, which is taking many hours because it is a cleric and I'm having to figure out how to create the divine domain and all the special class abilities for that domain.

Anything to help climb the learning curve would help. I'm grateful that LWD made the tutorials, there were very helpful but I could use a LOT more DnD 5e oriented examples.

[Dervish]

I believe that wizards licensed LWD knowing the community would fill in the gaps there is no way they could ignore the possibility of it occurring so either they are waiting for the community to show the work so they can slap it down or the minute the community shows the work they will just license the full version those are the only two realistic outcomes that i can see.

Only time will tell.

[rob]

Here are some thoughts on this subject that will hopefully address some of the questions/concerns expressed above...

1. It is absolutely possible to extend the 5E data files in substantial ways. For reference, look at the myriad extensions for Pathfinder. The vast majority of Pathfinder 3PP data files, including the material we official sell, is created by the 3PPs themselves. In addition, the mammoth catalog of 3.5E community packs is all user-created. And it's all done without direct access to the raw data files. The same can be readily achieved for 5E.

2. The 3.5E community packs have existed for many years (nearly a decade). They were started back before 4E was even released. So the assumption that community files for 5E would be summarily shutdown by Wizards is not accurate. The first real question is whether the community files violate Wizards' copyright protections. Copyright protects the expression of an idea - not the idea itself - and it is not possible to copyright mechanics (that requires a patent). That means Wizards can absolutely require that users don't re-use the names, images, or complete descriptive text of anything they create - and they should. However, reproducing the mechanics of a particular feat or path is not covered by copyright protection. This means that a community-driven effort is viable, provided that it avoids using protected names (e.g. rename Mind Flayer to something similarly suggestive), omits all images, and paraphrases any descriptions. With those criteria met, I believe the community pack would generally be safe. Disclaimer: I'm NOT a lawyer, but I’ve talked to one extensively about this, and this is my understanding.

3. The other real question, and probably the more important one to Wizards, is whether any community-created data files would negatively impact Wizards’ sales of D&D products. So an important aspect of any community effort would be to ensure the data files don't “compete” against sales of the rulebooks or other products that Wizards is selling. As long as that requirement is met, it’s highly unlikely that Wizards would take exception to the community effort. And if the community data files are structured such that Wizards perceives them as making the game more accessible or easier for players/DMs (i.e. indirectly boosting sales of books), then we’ve achieved a truly symbiotic relationship. That’s the ideal scenario here, and it’s one that I believe is readily achievable. Disclaimer: I’m not privy to Wizards’ thinking on this, but I’m viewing this from the perspective of a business owner.

4. There is no reason for a community effort to go on hold based on the possibility of an official license. We’ve been striving to secure an official license for a very long time now, and the process is fraught with hurdles. Some of those hurdles are now behind us, but others still remain. A big hurdle has been, and will continue to be, expected pricing. Even if we do secure an official license, my assumption is that the required price point will be a barrier for some players, so I believe there’s a place for both an SRD-based community pack AND an officially licensed version of D&D – both through Hero Lab. There will be plenty of users who are happy to pay a premium for all the official text, the images, the simplicity, and the added testing of an “official” version. There will also be plenty of users who are content to use the unofficial community packs and save some money. I think there’s a place for both, and that assumes we CAN secure an official license (far from a sure thing). From my perspective, this means anyone interested in contributing to the community effort should not hold off based on the mere possibility of an official license.

I hope these thoughts prove helpful to everyone when determining whether to contribute to the community effort and how best to realize that effort.

Thanks!

[rob]

Originally Posted by MNBlockHead

I'm a little disheartened to learn that it may not be possible for some feats to be coded in. I don't know enough about the program yet to even fully understand what he is talking about.

I believe that the concerns about being unable to implement certain feats, or any other aspects of the 5E rules, are based upon incorrect assumptions. As I outlined in my second point above, mechanics are not protected by copyright. This means that, even if users discovered a limitation where capability X could not be implemented in the current 5E files, we could safely add the underlying mechanics for that general capability. Then users could add the specific details.

We've already done that in places with the Pathfinder data files, making it possible for some 3PPs to incorporate their custom mechanics via simply the editor. We could do the same for the 5E files, and I expect we will to support various 3PPs with their 5E supplements. If there's something we've overlooked within the current 5E rules, or something is introduced in a new supplement from Wizards, we can add the framework logic so the editor can be readily leveraged by users.

Thanks, Rob

[MNBlockHead]

Thanks for the clarifications Rob. Having fun learning the program, but certainly looking forward to the community helping to fill in the gaps in the SRD.

[MagicSN]

Originally Posted by rob

I believe that the concerns about being unable to implement certain feats, or any other aspects of the 5E rules, are based upon incorrect assumptions. As I outlined in my second point above, mechanics are not protected by copyright. This means that, even if users discovered a limitation where capability X could not be implemented in the current 5E files, we could safely add the underlying mechanics for that general capability. Then users could add the specific details.

We've already done that in places with the Pathfinder data files, making it possible for some 3PPs to incorporate their custom mechanics via simply the editor. We could do the same for the 5E files, and I expect we will to support various 3PPs with their 5E supplements. If there's something we've overlooked within the current 5E rules, or something is introduced in a new supplement from Wizards, we can add the framework logic so the editor can be readily leveraged by users.

Thanks, Rob

It seems I was wrong (I saw some code to do the needed stuff for feats) as to "not being able to do something without the dat files). I stand corrected.

I still claim it would be easier with the dat files (and for some parts I still do not see how it would be possible, especially modifying the character sheet and the "start a character" GUI.

As to the things I really would like in the code (and where I also would work on like provide you guys from Wolf Lair with example code from my own implementation or do it in the editor if it is possible) I sent an email to Liz yesterday. I also included some screenshots so you can have a look.

I would also be interested in discussing the implementation of these features (and how I could help with it) in private, if this is preferred.

For myselves starting on porting over my code to your version the barrier right now is that some of my "must-have" features require modification of the character sheet PDF code.

Though even if everything is possible without the .dat files I claim it would make things easier if community software authors could look at the complete implementation instead of having to use the editor and always only able to look at a "small part" at the same time.

I believe a strong reason why so many community updates for 4e existed was that the whole code was available in form of .dat files and you just could go on with a text editor and look at the whole code.

Best regards,
MagicSN

[Frodie]

Ok, so we are all on the same page, so we can make a feat like -

Alert (change the name to something like - Alertness or Alert (community) etc)

No txt, just a script.

Is that cool with everyone and not stepping on any toes?

[Dervish]

We need to include text

or instance :
Alert

You are mindful of your surroundings as a result of this

you react faster add +5 to your initiative

If you are awake you can not be surprised

If a creature is hidden it does not gain advantage when attacking you