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Old July 7th, 2019, 08:00 AM
Several questions.

I had gotten the preview HLO but it ends on the 17th of July. I see no way to extend it into the August release date. What am I missing? How do I do that?

Is this going to have the full release rules on release? I was playing around yesterday and noticed it still had a lot of things from beta testing.

I'm also curious as to why the Web UI is so clunky. I can't double click a choice and have it be selected. I have to select it, then click another button. Further, it needs to allow me to see previous choices easier. I went choosing spells, for example, and not remembering what I had, ended up picking some twice. So, they either need to be marked as already picked, gone from the list, or I need the ability to see my list of spells and make a choice at the same time. It's a lot of things like this that make it clunky to use, at best, but I'm hoping it gets better!


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Old July 7th, 2019, 10:02 AM
Agreed, edg. I would love spells and things to be removed or marked as chosen.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 04:48 AM
We are still in testing. We hope to get things cleaned up and running smoothly as soon as possible. Thanks for your patience!
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Old July 8th, 2019, 07:32 AM
Where are you adding spells to that you are seeing the spells not being removed from the list? Is this to a spellbook, or to a class, in which case, which class?
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Old July 8th, 2019, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
Where are you adding spells to that you are seeing the spells not being removed from the list? Is this to a spellbook, or to a class, in which case, which class?
Sorcerer class. I have Continual Flame and Restoration as choices but already have them learned. Restoration is from Angelic Bloodline but not sure why Continual Flame is possibly duplicated. In general, the bloodline spells are repeated as options to pick.

Wizard. Um, all of them? They are sorted by level but no levels breaks, so you just have to know. Again, it would be nice to have the number of choices remaining on picks like this. I was able to put Read Aura on three times. I don't know why there are two ways to indicate memorizing a spell multiple times. Seems it would be easier to pick the spell once, then up the number on that spell instead of both. That's for memorizing.

Wizard spellbook, they are all repeated.

Hopefully that helps.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 04:05 PM
Think about PF2's spell heightening rules - a Sorcerer needs to learn a spell at each of the levels they want to be able to cast it at (with the Spontaneous Heightening feature helping minimize the actual need to do so since it can cover your favorites), but a character may not have enough spontaneous heightening uses to cover all the things they want to do. Prepared casters like Wizards have to prepare spells at specific levels in order to be able to cast them at that level, so you could prepare 3rd and 5th level fireballs at the same time.

In a spellbook, while there's not much use for it, you're technically allowed to write multiple copies of the same thing (it's more useful when you get multiple spellbooks, and may want to create a backup to keep at home or something like that).

So we have improvements to make in terms of how to present things, and we'll need to do more to flag the duplicates, but I'm not sure we can actually remove spells from the list when added to your character without messing up some of the heightening options.
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Old July 14th, 2019, 04:47 AM
I posted this over at Paizo and while 24 hours isn't long enough to know if there will be a reply, I'm impatient.

Originally at Paizo forums: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42mvn?Q...aracter-builds

ETA: I see those forums are dead as the playtest is over, so that's why I won't get a response. I'm still curious and impatient but understand if no response.

I'm late in getting to some things, so apologize but a quick search didn't yield anything. I'm playing around with Hero Lab Online (HRO) and made a 17th level Sorcerer and a 20th level paladin just for fun and to see the numbers. The numbers scare me.

Now, I'm sure that HRO isn't updated with final rules but I am curious if what I'm seeing is correct. My assumption is that a three level gap like the above isn't bad. I also thought they were flattening the numbers and not going to go as high.

In the case of the 17th level sorcerer v a 20th level paladin:

Paladin: +5 full plate for AC 44, TAC 40. Saves are F+32, R+25, W+30. +4 Bastard Sword. +32/27/22. Damage: 5d8+6 Hit Points: 328
Sorcerer: Mage Armor: AC 33, TAC 33. Saves are F+27, R+22, W+27. Spell attack is +24. Spell DCs are 34. +3 Mace is +21/16/11. Damage: 4d6+1 +3 Crossbow are +20/15/10 Damage: 4d8 Hit Points: 178

This sorcerer is outclassed at all points. Spells that require an attack means he can't get a critical, only hits on a 20, a 16+ for TAC. He only hits on physical attacks on a 20. Spells are saved on a 2, 9, or 4, for F/R/W. Reflex doesn't critical save often but other two might, which seems to be no damage.

The paladin is going to win. Assuming he can get close and the sorcerer doesn't run away, he hits on a 2/6/11, so more than half the time. A normal long sword gives him 29/24/19, which hits on a 4/9/14. Might take longer as the damage d8+6 isn't great for the level. I didn't intend for these two to fight and gave the paladin Angelic Form, so the sorcerer has to teleport to get away as flight won't do it.

To compare again, I made a 20th level Rogue.

Rogue: Dagger +30/26/22. Damage: 4d4+6 +2 leather AC 39, TAC 38. Saves aren't as important but F+24 R+31 W+26. Hit Points: 206

So, the rogue has a few more options. Legendary sneak to maybe get a +2 flank but still only hits on a 12 for flanking, 14 otherwise. Poisons might also help wear him down but it would be drawn out and not guaranteed as the Paladin hits on 7/12/17. Not to mention Lay on Hands to help. Maybe a readied action by the paladin allows one hit and his damage is higher for his weapon. Sneak attack is only +4d6 at 20th level.

First of all, do these numbers look right? I have made assumptions and corrections are fine. Second, from a numbers standpoint, is that what is expected?

Looking at an ancient Black Dragon, better numbers than the sorcerer but not by much. An Ancient Blue Dragon or Red Dragon would be tougher but possible. (Also, do I read it correctly that dragons can choose between bite, claw, and tail as they prefer in any combination up to three?)

I'm excited about PF2E the more I have read about it, watched videos, and played in the character creator. When I brought down the print outs of these characters, I was shocked at these numbers, so had to share and ask where I went wrong. Or if I did.


Last edited by evildmguy; July 14th, 2019 at 04:50 AM. Reason: found out playtest forums are dead
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Old July 14th, 2019, 05:49 AM
ignore me, I just checked the PF2 rules, and solo paladin vs sorcerer isn't always a best example of a fight. Don't forget about Blink and Blur to avoid/reduce damage. (And perhaps not many campaigns play for long at level 20, so not a good comparison anyway?)

NPCs are built differently in PF2, so don't expect to find your NPC foe statted like the above sorcerer.


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Last edited by Farling; July 14th, 2019 at 06:07 AM.
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Old July 14th, 2019, 08:52 AM
I actually ran my group through Doomsday Dawn and have been following the Second Edition forum and news, so I guess I'm as good as anyone to comment on this.

I'll start with the caveat that there was a lot of work by Paizo between the end of the Playtest and the finalization of Second Edition, so there could be significant differences between Playtest 1.6 and Pathfinder 2.0.

I'll also note that Paizo worked hard to reduce the Martial/Caster disparity in PF2, and a three Level gap can be kind of a big deal, especially if there are Ability Boosts and/or Proficiency jumps in that gap.

That said, I had both a Paladin and Sorcerer in my Playtest group, so I have 17th level versions of their characters to look at. Advancing the Paladin to 20th level, your numbers look reasonable. Still, while the Paladin certainly looks nasty here it's not an auto-win.

Looking at my PCs, the Paladin can fly at his Speed (with Heavy Armor) which HLO says is 20 feet per move. The Sorcerer can fly at 60 feet per move for a minute with each casting of her bloodline Dragon Wings and can cast it five times, so the Paladin is now in perpetual chase mode, especially if she casts Haste for the extra move. She also has Dimension Door if she needs a breather. If she didn't already have it up, she casts Foresight; now for each swing at her the Paladin has to roll twice and take the worse result cutting down somewhat on his hits and especially his crits even when he does get a swing off. On the other hand, with the Paladin's HP and ability to heal himself it's a real question if the Sorcerer can wear him down before she's down to Cantrips; the swinginess of the Saving Throws is probably going to be the big factor here.

So, does that help?

Currently Running: Pathfinder Second Edition
Currently Playing:
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Former HL Games: D&D 4e & 5e, Mutants & Masterminds 2E & 3E, Savage Worlds

Last edited by charlieluce; July 14th, 2019 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old July 14th, 2019, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the replies! Anything is good!

I agree that top level is a bad example. I have made enough low level characters in HLO to see that's it not as disparate.

I have a 10th level fighter that I multiclassed with wizard and 10th level wizard I multiclassed with fighter and the fighter is a bit better than the wizard at that level. The fighter still wins on Fort and Ref saves (assuming a roll of 10 for d20 rolls) but not for Will, so then it comes down to how prepared the wizard is. Basically, it's closer but the fighter is starting to pull away.

Do I care? No. I'm just curious about it. I'm reasonably sure that in PF1, there were big differences as well but in different ways.

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