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Laucian
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Old May 19th, 2017, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
In at least one case, the change in the Adventurer's Guide is deliberate, as James Jacobs commented "I was finally able to fix that".
And James Jacobs is not a source of official rulings, his comments are meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwayne View Post
Couldn't you just not buy The Adventurer's Guide and keep things as they are? The changes would only occur if you buy the book.
If they're going to "replace" the original, I'm guessing that it's also going to replace it even if you only have the original source. Also I shouldn't have to not buy something to keep something I already bought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
That's similar to a sentiment in the discussion at Paizo, but there's a difference.

When it comes to the book, people playing PFS will be told what changes they MUST make.

When it comes to home games, people can choose not to accept the changes.
Which is why there's a box in the settings you can tick to apply the PFS content restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
BUT, there is only ONE version of the ability in HeroLab. HeroLab is like automatically getting errata applied (which doesn't happen to the physical book). When LWD updates that ONE version, the change is applied to all characters using that updated "thing".

I view it as part of the trade-off of the digital tools... the tools need to reflect the "official" version of the rules. When possible, it is a bonus feature when they can accommodate house-rules, but not every house-rule is going to be easy to implement. So if the program provides tools for customization, that's the route fits most naturally.
And until Paizo states that the content in this book should replace the original versions the "official version" of the rules is that it should be treated as new content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
Most of the time, with electronic tools, "getting all updates automatically" is seen as a feature.
I agree, and it's one of the reasons I use HeroLab. However, again, until Paizo says otherwise this should be in addition to the existing content, it is not an "updated" version.
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frumple
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Old May 20th, 2017, 06:17 AM
I can tell you from doing work on this book for HL that things that have significant differences between the old and AvG version a new version is made and the old version is labeled with the book it comes from. Otherwise, things get updated. There is a lot of discussion behind the scenes on this.

For example, the Steel Falcon prestige class is significantly different between the AvG and the original Andoran book, so there will be two versions. The old version being renamed Steel Falcon (Andoran).

Something similar is done withe the Aldori Swordlord prestige class (in this book) vs. the archetype which has been around since the primer.

Most of the updates are tweaks to the language of abilities and done really affect their in game effect significantly.
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Silveras
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Old May 20th, 2017, 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laucian View Post
And James Jacobs is not a source of official rulings, his comments are meaningless.
Normally, I'd be one to point out that Mr. Jacobs has asked people NOT to look to him for rules adjudication support... both because his answers can change depending on the circumstances and his feeling of "that would be cool", and because he has, himself. pointed out that the Pathfinder Development Team is a separate group from his team, where he is the Creative Director.

However, this book is "experimental" ... putting out a book in the RPG-line (normally world-neutral) that draws on Golarion-specific content. As such, and as James Jacobs it the "Lead Developer" of the book, his opinion this time could very well be the final word.
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Laucian
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Old May 20th, 2017, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by frumple View Post
I can tell you from doing work on this book for HL that things that have significant differences between the old and AvG version a new version is made and the old version is labeled with the book it comes from. Otherwise, things get updated. There is a lot of discussion behind the scenes on this.

For example, the Steel Falcon prestige class is significantly different between the AvG and the original Andoran book, so there will be two versions. The old version being renamed Steel Falcon (Andoran).

Something similar is done withe the Aldori Swordlord prestige class (in this book) vs. the archetype which has been around since the primer.

Most of the updates are tweaks to the language of abilities and done really affect their in game effect significantly.
I'd again argue that it's not up to you guys to decide what is significant or not, but I understand the decision has already been made. I do appreciate the quick responses from the team, not a whole lot of companies have such a great forum presence.
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Colen
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Old May 21st, 2017, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laucian View Post
I'd again argue that it's not up to you guys to decide what is significant or not, but I understand the decision has already been made. I do appreciate the quick responses from the team, not a whole lot of companies have such a great forum presence.
With things like this we have to strike a balance between keeping things the same for people using "old versions" of the content, and making things more complicated for users. If we end up with multiple versions of something in Hero Lab, it's confusing to users who may not know which one to pick, and it's more work for us to maintain - for example, if a bug is discovered, it may need to be fixed in both versions.

It's better in 99% of cases if we just integrate minor changes to an ability's text into a single version of the ability. If your gaming group wants to keep using the older version, you're free to use the text from the PRD or PDF instead, and just ignore the changes in Hero Lab.

As Frumple said, for a few of the new classes / archetypes in the AG, the changes were major enough that we created new versions of the class / archetype for them. If we followed that path everywhere, the data files would take longer to download and be more confusing to use, so we try to avoid it unless the changes pass a reasonable threshold.
Colen is offline   #15 Reply With Quote
Minous
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Old May 21st, 2017, 06:32 AM
Can someone from LW please send me a user file with a copy of the ioun stones before the updates from the book are applied? Because this is a large shift it would be nice to move these to a community file for those who want to use the legacy versions.
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ShadowChemosh
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Old May 21st, 2017, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colen View Post
If we followed that path everywhere, the data files would take longer to download and be more confusing to use, so we try to avoid it unless the changes pass a reasonable threshold.
That has been my concern the whole time when this came up. The biggest being for many players that don't live on the Paizo forums having multiple versions of the same class is going to be confusing.

My take is, just like in 3.5 days, the latest printing of the rules is the version that should be used. WotC did this and now Paizo does also. It seems like a common method for small game companies to fix issues.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
ShadowChemosh is offline   #17 Reply With Quote
Silveras
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Old May 21st, 2017, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
That has been my concern the whole time when this came up. The biggest being for many players that don't live on the Paizo forums having multiple versions of the same class is going to be confusing.

My take is, just like in 3.5 days, the latest printing of the rules is the version that should be used. WotC did this and now Paizo does also. It seems like a common method for small game companies to fix issues.
The thread I mentioned on the Paizo forums is asking for a definitive statement whether or not this is the policy Paizo is following. I believe it is, based on past comments about various products, but I don't have a particular quote to point people at to say "yes, this is indeed Paizo's policy".

Overall, I can see LWD is in a tougher position, though. They have an official license, and that pretty much means they have to conform to what Paizo decides is the official version of these things. At the same time, they have their own paying customers to consider, and avoiding causing them inconvenience is also necessary.
Silveras is offline   #18 Reply With Quote
ShadowChemosh
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Old May 21st, 2017, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
The thread I mentioned on the Paizo forums is asking for a definitive statement whether or not this is the policy Paizo is following. I believe it is, based on past comments about various products, but I don't have a particular quote to point people at to say "yes, this is indeed Paizo's policy".

Overall, I can see LWD is in a tougher position, though. They have an official license, and that pretty much means they have to conform to what Paizo decides is the official version of these things. At the same time, they have their own paying customers to consider, and avoiding causing them inconvenience is also necessary.
I am totally lost what your point is? I am very sorry but you seem to just be "summing" up information.

Can you be very clear to your point?

My main point is I DO NOT WANT multiple classes with the same name in HL. This will cause ridiculous levels of confusion to my players. Most HL users I deal with now refuse to even read a book or have a bood with the rules and only go by HL. So having "two" classes to pick from is going to confuse them. They will have NO WAY to know which version to use as most can't/don't track which book just came out or when.

Now lets add to the issue that from the past changes d20pfsrd will simply "update" the class text to the latest printing. This leads to more confusion if the text from d20pfsrd does not match HL. If the text abilities don't match they will complain to me to put in a bug report(s). Then I have to try and explain about books and versions and UG all I will get is a blank look of dear in headlights.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
ShadowChemosh is offline   #19 Reply With Quote
Laucian
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 13

Old May 21st, 2017, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
My main point is I DO NOT WANT multiple classes with the same name in HL. This will cause ridiculous levels of confusion to my players. Most HL users I deal with now refuse to even read a book or have a bood with the rules and only go by HL. So having "two" classes to pick from is going to confuse them. They will have NO WAY to know which version to use as most can't/don't track which book just came out or when.

Now lets add to the issue that from the past changes d20pfsrd will simply "update" the class text to the latest printing. This leads to more confusion if the text from d20pfsrd does not match HL. If the text abilities don't match they will complain to me to put in a bug report(s). Then I have to try and explain about books and versions and UG all I will get is a blank look of dear in headlights.
That's a problem with your players, not something that should affect the program.
Laucian is offline   #20 Reply With Quote
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