Army Builder on Linux

[rob]

At 10:51 AM 3/8/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Never, ever assume something's written in VB...

Unless it's installation program is more than 15MB (and that's fully
compressed). Then it's a good bet the product was written in VB. :-)

>I believe Rob uses Borland C++.

Actually it's a hybrid. I use MSVC for AB itself. I use C++Builder for
ABCreator. I prefer VC's debugger (I *HATE* everything else about VC), so I
use VC for the full product. However, C++Builder has an excellent framework
for quickly doing stock UI coding, so it's the tool of choice for projects
like ABCreator.

Use the best tool for each job is my motto....

>And since it's _only_ Rob doing it, I
>wouldn't expect a native version any time soon...

There is a common misperception that Lone Wolf Development is a major
corporation with a huge staff that can tackle all sorts of projects
concurrently. While this is a good thing in many ways, it also has its
drawbacks. Examples include the myriad expectations that adding feature X
or supporting platform Y should be automatically done.

Thanks for reminding everyone about my mere mortal status. Not to mention
that I'm the only one doing EVERYTHING for this product at the present time
(sales, marketing, artwork, support, accounting, admin, oh and
development). Reality checks like this are important from time to time. :->

I'm pedaling as fast as I can!!! :->

Thanks, Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com

On 8 Mar 2001, at 22:41, Rob Bowes wrote:

> At 09:58 PM 3/8/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Well, one, its not a small number of users anymore... Linux is the
> >fastest growing piece of software on the planet. Its slated to pass
> >windows for desktop PCs in like 8 years. MS is starting to worry, but
> >wont admit it publicly.
>
> I didn't say I wouldn't support it. I said the demand needed to
> justify the investment. It's quite likely that will occur over the
> upcoming years. When that happens, I'll likely do a Linux version of
> AB.
>
Ok, fair enough, just dont wait to long there is plenty of people who
do open source projects that might just make a clone of your program
that might even use the same datafiles. And it might just be open
source and thus free to boot. Something to consider.

> >Also, is it a convenience to require that the person pay extra for a
> >OS that will be used basicly for one program? (Granted most linux
> >users still run windows for games, but thats not the point).
>
> Please consider carefully your last statement above. If most Linux
> users already have an emulator to run Windows games, then most of AB's

Well, right now most people do a dual boot, which is very differant
from an emulator. THe average linux user does not mess with Wine or
any other emulator, its only normally used by those who must run a
piece of software for work or school.

> customer base won't NEED to buy a native Linux version. That means
> that the huge effort to create a native version will only be NEEDED by
> a small fraction of the already small (but growing) base of Linux

Well, most users only run a emulator or dual boot, as most software
is still only written for windows. That is rapidly changing, I know
a good number of people that work full time and have nothing but
linux on the their machines. This will become the norm in about 5
years. As linux matures a bit more so that drivers are more availble
(and you dont have to beg or hunt forever for them). It will become
alot more mainline. Question is, do you want to join the crowd, or
lead it?

> users. This means that sales will certainly not justify the investment
> at the current time. Once the sales numbers will balance out the
> investment, it's a good business decision to create a native version.
> My time is extremely limited and I have to make the best use of it.
> It's not a slight against Linux users. It's a basic reality of
> business - same as any other company developing software for any
> platform.
>
Granted, your a lone man doing alot. It will take some time, and some
effort to learn the OS. I just hope you dont get tied up and lose
track of future plans.

> >Depending on the level of ANSI compatiblity, it could be, as simple
> >as loading it up and recompling. Assuming your not using MSVC, most
> >other compliers are about 90% ansi complient. It would not be the
> >huge chore you think. I have translated larger programs from windows
> >to Linux, and am working on a few others.
>
> I do cross-platform portability as a profession, so I'm reasonably
> familiar with the issues. :-) AB is written to be portable, with the
> exception of a smattering of low-level facilities (easily ported),
> some key components (e.g. internet access), and the UI. It's the UI
> that will be a bear to port, since THAT piece of AB was NOT written to
> be portable (the overhead to do so would have been prohibitive). The
> complexity of hte AB UI has increased significantly over the years, so
> this is a major piece to try and port.
>
I have one word to say, Widgets, or GTK+ as its properly called.
http://www.gtk.org Its the X windows version of the visual tool kit,
it has all the stuff you need, prepackaged and ready to go. List
boxes, combo boxes (maybe under differant names, but the function is
the same), text boxes, etc.

> >Also Borland and others have compatible libraries under linux, to
> >make porting even easier. If you dont have a linux box, I would sit
> >down install it on a spare system, (takes an hour for a basic
> >install, ignoring sound/zips/burners/high powered video) gcc/g++ is
> >installed pretty much by default. YOu might just give it go one after
> >noon when your bombed out on writing code. Ask I will snail mail you
> >a copy of RedHat, (Yes its legal) just ask me off list.
>
> I'll make a point of doing this over the Summer. First I have to get
> finished with my current project, then get a new release of AB put
> together, and then deal with Origins/GenCon. After that, I can think
> about Linux. :-)

Ok, fair enough, its on the agenda, at least.

>
> BTW, I've been using g++ and gdb on a project for client. I must say
> that the compiler is reasonably solid (sans a few quirks that are a
> pain), but gdb is a few giant leaps backwards from what I'm used to
> with the VC debugger (or even the Borland debugger). That will make
> the port a much less pleasant process. :-(

Gdb is not the major player anymore, Codewarrior is.
>

> >I happen to be a memeber of a LUG (Canton Linux Users Group), and if
> >you have some other problems that I cannot answer myself. I am about
> >90% sure I can get the answers with hours or overnight. We have some
> >heavy hitters in our little group, profession programmers, and
> >sysadmins (And a few web celebs as well).
>
> Excellent. It's nice to have a knowledgeable resource to tap. I'll
> definitely keep this in mind when the Linux effort is pursued.

Sure, anytime, and I can also point you to some reasonable online
references.

>
> >BTW, ONce you port a version to Linux, your done, it will only
> >require a recomplie to run under the many flavors and platforms that
> >linux runs under, including: Mac, Intel, Sparc, most modern
> >mainframes, and even the amiga. Oh yea, the commadore 64/128!
> >
> >Try that with any other operating system....
>
> My code already takes all that into consideration pretty cleanly. I've
> been doing cross-platform portability work (typically Windows, Unix,
> and Mac) for a LONG time, so that's not an issue for me. The gotcha is
> the UI.

Cool. Be honest I was begining to think you were a hobbiest
programmer that made it big, and was perhaps over your head.

>
> >So its worth the time, and you might see your sales grow even faster,
> >if you took a weekend and gave it a shot.
>
> So fill me in on how difficult it would be to port about 50,000 lines
> of code that is tied to the Windows API (primarily GDI). Also describe
> what libraries are in place that emulate the functionality of things
> like the "wininet" API provided under Windows. I have no idea what
> provisions/libraries are in place under Linux for this, but this is
> critical to porting the product.

All are availble in the Gnome toolkits. GTK+ (at least just about
everything, including Inet access).
>
> >Course you welcome to ignore me, and in five years I promise not to
> >look you up and say I told you so.... I will just sit back and smile.
>
> :-)
>

Thank you for at least considering what I have to say.

> Thanks, Rob
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com)
> (650) 726-9689 Lone Wolf Development
> www.wolflair.com
>
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Fallenhunter
"They know you have the information they want, question is when will they find you."
Overheard at a bar in the Corbia sector.

On 8 Mar 2001, at 23:31, Toller Madsen wrote:

> I highly doubt that Linux will surpass the Windows Platform..I have a
> Linux webserver and it took me days to get it working (it's not for
> everyone). Any idiot can install Windows XXXX and have the computer

Try redhat, any idiot can do that one as well, my wife did it, first
try, and she still types hen peck, let along know much about
computers. Its a similar interface for install, point and click.

The linux installers get better every version...

> running perfectly (as far as any MS system goes..for those MS bashers)
> where getting a Linux box to work smoothly is a lot more work and your
> average Joe won't be able to handle it. Sure Companies like Corel are
> making an idiot's version of Linux but you have to pay for it (which
> defeats the point of a free OS Linux). It would be great to have AB
> on Linux but I think it would be more profitable for Rob to make a mac
> version before Linux.

Mac version? Hmm... I support over a 100 locations, only one has a
mac. Not in my market it would not. I have 16 offices running Linux
as main servers/workstations. One girl uses her mac for graphics.


>
> > windows for desktop PCs in like 8 years. MS is starting to
> worry, but > wont admit it publicly. Did one of Gates' private
> memos get sent to you accidently, or did you find this out at your
> last lunch with "the big guy"? ;p
>

No, but give me a few hours (i have to go take wife to work) I will
dig up a quote from Bill Gates that sure sounds like is a bit
worried.


Fallenhunter
"They know you have the information they want, question is when will they find you."
Overheard at a bar in the Corbia sector.

At 23:31 08/03/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I highly doubt that Linux will surpass the Windows Platform..I have a
>Linux webserver and it took me days to get it working (it's not for
>everyone).

Exactly. Once I become immensely rich and can afford to leave my job (cough
cough), the development of Skrill Linux 9000 will begin - the world's first
easy-to-use, gui, all-singing-all-dancing etc. Linux system. Hoorah!
Unfortunately, chances = low of this ever happening

>Any idiot can install Windows XXXX and have the computer running perfectly
>(as far as any MS system goes..for those MS bashers)

Well, apart from all the security holes

>where getting a Linux box to work smoothly is a lot more work and your
>average Joe won't be able to handle it. Sure Companies like Corel are
>making an idiot's version of Linux but you have to pay for it (which
>defeats the point of a free OS Linux). It would be great to have AB on
>Linux but I think it would be more profitable for Rob to make a mac
>version before Linux.

Haha, mac version. Sorry, just an old prejudice there :/

I'll be happy with Linux when Mr I. M. Becile of 9 Buffoon Lane, Islington
can install it, have it running a web server, etc., with no horrible
problems like Sendmail used to be until you beat it around the head like we
had to do. Until then, it has no chance of competing with Windows in the
desktop market.

IMAO, of course


--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time

> I'll be happy with Linux when Mr I. M. Becile of 9 Buffoon Lane,
> Islington can install it, have it running a web server, etc., with no
> horrible problems like Sendmail used to be until you beat it around
> the head like we had to do. Until then, it has no chance of competing
> with Windows in the desktop market.
>
> IMAO, of course
>

Check out version 6.2 Redhat, it will install in about 20 mins, it
does not take a genuis to answer the questions its asks, and once of
the options it plainly offers is the install and configure the web
server. Yes, it still requires some tweeks, (customize some
settings, using a config tool), but then again any webserver needs to
know the website's name etc...

You would be surprised at how easily Linux is to install today. If
your having that much trouble, you generally have either: 1: exoctic
hardware, that the company refuses to support under linux, or 2: an
older copy of linux, or like Debian, an advanced users interface.

If your using one of the user freindly versions, Redhat, Mandrake, or
Caldera. Install and stuff is a breeze. If your using something like
Debian (which lacks most of the GUI tools to adjust stuff) or some
really crappy piece of trash that should never have been release,
Corel comes to mind. You will have problems.



Fallenhunter
"They know you have the information they want, question is when will they find you."
Overheard at a bar in the Corbia sector.


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> >
> > > windows for desktop PCs in like 8 years. MS is starting to
> > worry, but > wont admit it publicly. Did one of Gates' private
> > memos get sent to you accidently, or did you find this out at
> > your last lunch with "the big guy"? ;p
> >
>
> No, but give me a few hours (i have to go take wife to work) I will
> dig up a quote from Bill Gates that sure sounds like is a bit worried.
>

http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,41527,00.html

If anyone cares... Thats the link I was refering to.

Opps, I was wrong, it was not Bill, it was one of his flunkies:
Doug Miller, Microsoft's group product manager for competitive
strategies.


Fallenhunter
"They know you have the information they want, question is when will they find you."
Overheard at a bar in the Corbia sector.


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[rob]

At 08:23 AM 3/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Ok, fair enough, just dont wait to long there is plenty of people who
>do open source projects that might just make a clone of your program
>that might even use the same datafiles. And it might just be open
>source and thus free to boot. Something to consider.

I welcome them to do so. There are lots of other tools like AB for Windows.
None of them hold a candle to AB's functionality. Why? Because a LOT of
work went into AB that most people won't invest the time into for a
freeware project.

>Well, most users only run a emulator or dual boot, as most software
>is still only written for windows. That is rapidly changing, I know
>a good number of people that work full time and have nothing but
>linux on the their machines. This will become the norm in about 5
>years. As linux matures a bit more so that drivers are more availble
>(and you dont have to beg or hunt forever for them). It will become
>alot more mainline. Question is, do you want to join the crowd, or
>lead it?

Given that I have to make a living off of this - and support a mortgage,
wife, and soon kids - I'll gladly join it when there is enough business
there to live off of.

>I have one word to say, Widgets, or GTK+ as its properly called.
>http://www.gtk.org Its the X windows version of the visual tool kit,
>it has all the stuff you need, prepackaged and ready to go. List
>boxes, combo boxes (maybe under differant names, but the function is
>the same), text boxes, etc.

In other words, I have to completely rewrite the entire UI of Army Builder
to a new API. Sorry, but that's a HUGE amount of work. It won't happen
anytime soon, since a huge amount of work requires that there be a
correspondingly huge return on the investment. It's not there for Linux at
present.

>Gdb is not the major player anymore, Codewarrior is.

Which is still not nearly as good as MSVC for debugging.

>Sure, anytime, and I can also point you to some reasonable online
>references.

Excellent. Thanks!

>Cool. Be honest I was begining to think you were a hobbiest
>programmer that made it big, and was perhaps over your head.

Nope. I'm a 20-year veteran that was at the top of his game in Silicon
Valley. I decided to do my own product. That's AB.

> > So fill me in on how difficult it would be to port about 50,000 lines
> > of code that is tied to the Windows API (primarily GDI). Also describe
> > what libraries are in place that emulate the functionality of things
> > like the "wininet" API provided under Windows. I have no idea what
> > provisions/libraries are in place under Linux for this, but this is
> > critical to porting the product.
>
>All are availble in the Gnome toolkits. GTK+ (at least just about
>everything, including Inet access).

The full Windows GDI API is fully implemented in GTK? I thought that GTK
was an X-Windows port (per both my memory and your statement above). If
it's X-Windows, I need a complete rewrite of the UI. If it's the Windows
API, it's a whole different story. Please clarify.

Thanks, Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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<snip pissing contest about linux, its not worth the effort>
>
> >All are availble in the Gnome toolkits. GTK+ (at least just about
> >everything, including Inet access).
>
> The full Windows GDI API is fully implemented in GTK? I thought that
> GTK was an X-Windows port (per both my memory and your statement
> above). If it's X-Windows, I need a complete rewrite of the UI. If
> it's the Windows API, it's a whole different story. Please clarify.

Ok, You will have to rewite the interface, but its not as much
trouble as you think, you know the lay out, you know how you want it
to work, you know that it works. How long would it take you to
rewrite that same interface in VC? about 15 mins? If that. Once you
have spent the time learning how the GTK+ works, your will find its
not much harder than VC. Just no GUI to the controls. Tweeking
placement and such might take some time. But overall its not going to
be that hard. Having used VC and GTK, I will readily admit that the
Windows API Calls will have to be re-referenced. But the same result
should occur.

GTK is native X windows, and you will have to learn about X windows
funtions and the way it works. But anything you can do in MS Windows
can be done with about the same amount of effort in X windows.
Granted that the easy user interfaces have not been written yet. But
coding is about the typed word, not a fancy GUI. (At least for the
old schoolers, I learned C/C++ from a subset called LPC, which is
completly text based, and you used ed to enter and correct code).

Now. In interest of good will, I am willing to say, your right. It
will take a lot of effort, and hard work, to port this. It may not
now or ever be worth the effort to you. But, assuming you ever do,
please feel free to look me up for some help.



Laters!

Fallenhunter
"They know you have the information they want, question is when will they find you."
Overheard at a bar in the Corbia sector.


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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:41:49 -0500
From: "Fallenhunter" <fallenhunter@neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Army Builder on Linux


I have to say as a Software developer, developing in both windows and
Linux, it is not that easy to port something across.
I have to agree with rob, there is not enough want for the product to make
it feasible, and that is the bottom line. You have to be able to pay the
wages each week, and when the product doesn't sell then there is no in
coming money. I say leave it as it is, until there is the demand for it.

Scott Bartel


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