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jlong05
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Old April 27th, 2018, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
100% correct. Urog is a "pre-built" monster. A Void Hag is a 'pre-built' monster. Human or Vesk have no 'pre-built' monster stats. A pre-built monster stat (even in HLO) includes all the decisions that Paizo already made when building it (Ability scores, selection of master skills, if the monster was a combat or skill expert). Its not actually a blank "race" like Pathfinder has or would be built in HLC for Pathfinder where you start with race and select skills and ability scores.

I think the OP had some incorrect selections as his example. I agree that non player race monsters should be the way they are, but the alternate player races, Barathu, Contemplative, Draelik, Dragonkin, Drow, Formian, Space Goblin, Gray, Haan, Ikeshti, Kalo, Maraquoi, Nuar, Ryphorian, Sarcesian, Shobhad, Skittermander, Urog, Verthani, Witchwyrd and Wrikreechee shoudl also follow the NPC rules being used for creating NPCs of Core system rules. Otherwise they do not follow the same logic. Either its ok for Core races to be in the NPC race list, or the AA races should not for custom NPCs that follow class builds.

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Old April 27th, 2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
The very first race in the list is a blank NPC that can be created as any race you want by adding the correct creature type and subtype.
I think this is the key confusion. Why are these races allowed to be done this way, but the player races that are blank NPC options cannot.

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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jlong05 View Post
I think the OP had some incorrect selections as his example. I agree that non player race monsters should be the way they are, but the alternate player races, Barathu, Contemplative, Draelik, Dragonkin, Drow, Formian, Space Goblin, Gray, Haan, Ikeshti, Kalo, Maraquoi, Nuar, Ryphorian, Sarcesian, Shobhad, Skittermander, Urog, Verthani, Witchwyrd and Wrikreechee shoudl also follow the NPC rules being used for creating NPCs of Core system rules. Otherwise they do not follow the same logic. Either its ok for Core races to be in the NPC race list, or the AA races should not for custom NPCs that follow class builds.
This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?

Last edited by Mathias; April 27th, 2018 at 04:23 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?
That may help with the confusion for people switching over from Pathfinder.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
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Last edited by ShadowChemosh; April 27th, 2018 at 04:28 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:32 PM
I am saying that there should be consistency on how you create an NPC that is a player race/class. Forgive me, I am not at home and so do not have my book to review, but on the surface the process should be the same.

For instance if I create a Human Bounty Hunter/Soldier as an NPC, the process for that should be the same as if I created a Drow Bounty Hunter Soldier. If that is as a custom race, selecting humanoid and then Human, it should be the same for selecting Drow. Consistency is the only way that the tool will remain functional and clear without causing unnecessary error reports due to unclear processes because you do it differently depending on which book the race originated from.

The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.

Last edited by jlong05; April 27th, 2018 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Spelling
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ShadowChemosh
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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:38 PM
Xxxxxxxxxx

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.

Last edited by ShadowChemosh; April 27th, 2018 at 06:54 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?
So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jlong05 View Post
I am saying that there should be consistency on how you create an NPC that is a player race/class. Forgive me, I am not at home and so do not have my book to review, but on the surface the process should be the same.

For instance if I create a Human Bounty Hunter/Soldier as an NPC, the process for that should be the same as if I created a Drow Bounty Hunter Soldier. If that is as a custom race, selecting humanoid and then Human, it should be the same for selecting Drow. Consistency is the only way that the tool will remain functional and clear without causing unnecessary error reports due to unclear processes because you do it differently depending on which book the race originated from.
Please describe how these differ currently. For both of these, I would start with a custom NPC, and add the array, type and subtype for the character I was building. Unless I'm creating a low-CR character, the choices that were made for the CR 1 drow enforcer are probably not going to be the same as I want for a CR 8 (for example) drow I'm creating, so if I added the pre-built one, it'd take a lot of steps to suppress all the things I don't want before I could add the things I did want.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?
Tinker is added by the Goblinoid subtype for creatures of the goblin race, and the drow version of the elf subtype adds the basic spell-like abilities, but I'd say no to Unstable Junklaser being there by default for the "just the race" version.

But yes, this is a level of complexity I hadn't gotten to when I was asking for clarification on whether I was understanding the overall project correctly, and there would be a number of decisions like these to be made in some cases.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh View Post
So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?
No. I am not suggesting that LW decide what does/doesnt get included. It should be what is included when it is listed within the defined player race statblock. For instance.

If I wanted to create an enemy NPC CR3 Space Goblin Mechanic, I would ideally expect to do it in the following order:

1. Race - Space Goblin
1.1 Autoset Creature Type - Humanoid(Goblin)
1.2 Autoset languages - Common, Goblin
1.3 Autoset Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
1.4 Autoset Creature Subtype Graft - Goblinoid
2. Set CR to 3
3. Array - Expert
4. Class Graft - Mechanic
5. Choose the stat settings you want set

Etc.. filling in remaining details. As a Goblin created under this method I would expect the following racial "statblock" elements as listed on pg 55 of AA:
RACIAL TRAITS
Ability Adjustments: +4 Dex, –2 Cha
Hit Points: 2
Size and Type: Space goblins are Small humanoids with the goblinoid subtype.
Darkvision: Space goblins have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Fast: Space goblins are fast for their size and have a base speed of 35 feet.
Scrounger: Space goblins receive a +2 racial bonus to Engineering, Stealth, and Survival checks.
Tinker: See page 54.

This is the current process to create this creature.

The issue is when you create something from the CRB. Making this same character, but as a Android would follow this path:

1. Race - custom
2. Set CR to 3
2. Array - Expert
3. Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
4. Creature Subtype Graft - Android
5. Class Graft - Mechanic
6. Choose the stat settings you want set

Both paths get nearly the same result, but the 1st route is significantly more intuitive to how you would expect to create a NPC for an existing race. You would not intuitively think to create a custom race NPC for a existing race in the game. I do not understand why instead all races couldn't just be managed from the Race selection and in the bare version, would not set any stat bonuses until the GM decides what they want set. (just like custom race) but without having to go through the multi-step custom race process.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the reasons employed here, but it just doesn't make sense that 'some' player races are functional as NPCs as a race selection, but other player races(specifically the ones from the CRB are only functional as a selection from a custom race creation)

As for the question on what abilities should come to an NPC as part of a class graft process, I would expect the elements listed under the racial traits for the PC class, not including items under specific monster creations in the AA book.

So Space Goblins would get Tinker, but not the junk laser as that is gear on the monster(not an actual racial benefit), Drow would get their immunities, magic etc, but not get the "create darkness, fighting styles (arcane assailant), rune of the eldritch knight" for the Enforcer monster or the "envoy improvisations (hidden agenda, improved get ’em, improved hurry, quick dispiriting taunt)" from the Arms dealer as those are defined monsters and should be as is.

Again, this is only my opinion, I am not the developer. Just saying what I believe makes sense for when I would create a NPC myself.

The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
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