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sambomb
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Itaocara, RJ - Brazil
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Old May 30th, 2020, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzi View Post
I know that I should just keep my trap shut because this argument will keep being brought up, but people keep saying this about HLC - 'Unlike HLO, HLC is mine. I'll be able to use it forever.', conveniently forgetting (or, more likely, ignoring) the fact that HLC uses a licensing server. If (gods forbid) Lone Wolf ever shuts its doors, then enjoy the very limited time you have left to use the software, because you won't be able to activate it again on a new computer/updated OS.

It sounds like the model isn't for you. Good on ya. That fact doesn't mean that it's an inherently bad model. For many of us, HLO works great and will only get better. (Particularly when PF1 comes to the platform. nudge, nudge).
I dont know if you understand how a Virtual Machine works, but thats what I have in my mind when Im talking about Keep my backup.
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Itzi
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Old May 30th, 2020, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sambomb View Post
I dont know if you understand how a Virtual Machine works, but thats what I have in my mind when Im talking about Keep my backup.
Yep. I use virtual machines in my work life every day. They're great things. I would postulate that the average HLC user doesn't install the software in one, though. They install it in their Windows box and don't think about it any more.

And even a vm image isn't a perfect solution. No matter what software you're using (a VMware product, Oracle, or whatever else), things break or go sideways. You do run updates on the vm, periodically, right? Anyway, my point is that there's a good chance that eventually you'll have to re-register the product. And if the licensing server isn't running anymore then you're no better off than someone running HLO.
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Duggan
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Old May 30th, 2020, 06:47 PM
I want to say that there was somewhere that Lone Wolf said that, if they go under, they plan on making a final patch to remove the licensing, but I don't remember where I read that (assuming I'm not conflating it with another company), and that would just be words. Still, I have faith in them.
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Grey Mage
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Old May 30th, 2020, 09:15 PM
Quote:
9. A few are worried that we could pull the plug on the product at any time and leave everyone “screwed”. While it’s theoretically possible that we could go out of business, the reality is that the company has been in business almost 25 years (founded in 1994). We’ve been creating digital tools for tabletop games for 20 years, starting with Army Builder back in 1998. Hero Lab itself has been going strong for more than a decade. So the likelihood of HLOnline just disappearing is extremely slim.

If there are significant questions or concerns that weren’t covered above, please let us know. Thanks for taking the time to read through all this. I sure hope it's useful!
Yet the White Elephant in the room with regards to #9 is that exactly what you did with Realm Works...

You pulled the plug without even fulfilling the Kickstarter goals you set out. Limited to almost no support even after people begged you to just give them a little something every few months.

Rob, I was one your company's strongest advocates until you broke faith with your backers. "Fool me once shame on you..." That is why I cannot support HLO; though several of the other points made were also pretty valid.
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thaX
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Old May 31st, 2020, 06:48 AM
In the event of Lone Wolf not being able to support HLC or being dissolved, just as with other programs, like old DOS games and such, HLC can drop into being orphan software, and have legal means to subvert or remove the license mechanic.

Now, likely Lone Wolf will do this on their own for their users, having the license revert to an always on for the user, much like the old CD keys for past programs being phased out.

The problem that the user will have and is the biggest huddle is the licenses that the program contains of the various game systems. These will lapse, and though the information will still be on the computer, updates and bug fixes will fall to the user community and the situation like what happened to Etools may result.

There are some that still has Etools around, though using it for Pathfinder is likey nigh next to impossible, and other licenses isn't something it was set up for. (Code Monkey was working on a newer, better character generator, but life happened and it is unlikely to be released)

This newer model of an App, being an online portal on a browser, is completely dependant on the company keeping things running. The worry and fear is that the information isn't secure or that one will not be able to access the character at a point when it is needed. It also expands the parameters of the original program, making it into an online GM tool and character generation seems to be secondary to the overall use of the App.

Realtime adjustments for in game changes such as spell buffs or being under a condition is something that is nice, if your not using Pen and Paper to run the character. This interaction started with the Ipad App that used/made Por files and is basically the same program as the PC version, but one could do adjustments on the fly on the device.

The main difference between the Ipad version and the HLO App is that one has to be online for the newer iteration. This presents a problem for one trying to use it in a setting where internet is spotty or not available, such as most convention settings or in a gaming store. The offline mode still needs the character to have been loaded up, as there are no files to bring up like with the older app and HLC program.

Overall, I believe in Lone Wolf and think they wanted to provide the best possible product for us to use. The move to an online app instead of an actual program is indicative of the times, where cloud computing is the wave of the future and devices are slowly replacing pen and paper. Hopefully, there is some thought to having a way to save characters locally and some sort of reader for offline use. Much has improved with the character print outs and the information presented. The plug ins for Society play and boons is still a work in progress, i believe.

The older program (HLC) is still there, and we can use it. Newer systems, though, are not forthcoming for the old dog. The new shiny App (HLO) will do more than the old program could, though whether or not the user wants all the bells and whistles or just the character generator aspect seems to be the barrier for the old users of the previous program.
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Mergon
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Old June 1st, 2020, 08:25 AM
The biggest issue with HLO is that it does not support everything that HLC supports. I find PF2 to be the equivalent of D&D 4e and will never buy or play the silly thing. And I have no interest in Starfinder. I haven't touch Shadowrun since 1st-2nd editions though I did buy Shadowrun 5 for HLC a while back because a friend threatened to run it.
At this time, I HLO offers nothing I want or need.

Watch your back, Conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
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thaX
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Old June 1st, 2020, 12:56 PM
The problem with 4th edition D&D (and a little with 5 edition) is that everything was structured to were there was no difference between the choices made throughout the character's career. From cookie cutter classes that only had names that were different between them to each having the same progression throughout, it was the most generic system produced. Yes, more than even GURPS.

PF2 does not have this problem. It does take some good mechanics that current systems have, some that 4th edition introduced or used, and an underlining structure that is more defined than the first iteration of Pathfinder. There is also a lot of room to grow as well as choices that can take a character in markedly different directions.

PF1 should come to HLO here soon, and I am sure other licenses will be forthcoming. For now, HLC is still here for us to use for PF1, M&M and other licenses. Newer games, though, will go through the new shiny.
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Koro76
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Old June 1st, 2020, 10:47 PM
I'm hoping that when P1 comes to HLO, there's a "Paizo complete bundle". I know some players that are specifically waiting for this, since the 2008-2016 bundle combined with the 2017 annual bundle doesn't include everything by far, and there hasn't been a bundle since.
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Farling
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Old June 2nd, 2020, 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koro76 View Post
I'm hoping that when P1 comes to HLO, there's a "Paizo complete bundle". I know some players that are specifically waiting for this, since the 2008-2016 bundle combined with the 2017 annual bundle doesn't include everything by far, and there hasn't been a bundle since.
There will be a minimal charge to get all your existing packages onto HLO from HLC. No need for a complete bundle

Farling

Author of the Realm Works Import (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=58156) and Output tools (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59981)
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Jamz
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Old June 2nd, 2020, 06:18 PM
I always find it funny that people hate on Pathfinder 1E to be crunchy and complex yet it based completely on DnD 3.5.

Then they make a decent system, a lot less crunchy, more versatile than DnD 5, and really, much more like 5e than 4e, but a lot more options.
And still people complain that it still has "rules".

-Jamz

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