Feedback from completely new user

[Vargr]

Having followed this discussion and having thought about it and having looked on the GUI with fresh eyes (probably not...), I must say, that I can't see any advantage in making the interface "simpler" or more "fragmented" (which is how I see a step-wise input method such as "first do this, then do that").

When I use RW I need to be able to see everything at one glance. All the connections, all the containers, all the topics, etc.

When I use RW I do everything at once. I start with a location, realize I need an individual, work a little on him, switch to inputting some long-forgotten language, back to the location to add a detail then jump to a seemingly completely unrelated company in a far off geographical location.

And sometimes this happens while playing.

I would feel constrained by anything but a fully open GUI - and I am pretty sure, that I would never have grasped the power and options and the customisation if the GUI had not been fully open.

In order to make RW really help the creative process (everything I enter is my own stuff), it should be a blank canvas, not taking my hand and guide me or simplify (= not showing options). If that was the case I would end up making everything based on the same template. It would be dull and unimaginative.

So please don't simplify, "guide" or wizardy RW - and please don't spend time doing so - we need other features before that (I am talking to you, Calendar System).

I understand the argument about newbies being put off by the interface such as it is - I simply don't agree with it; at all.

Apart from this - it is already possible to adjust the complexity to a certain degree:
Navigation under preferences: Topic Grouping (I know, probably not what some people are wanting).

[Pollution]

I'm with Vargr.

I don't want a "Put in the Contenent, then the nation, then the cities, then the...."

I like being able to say, "I'm sick of putting in the town, I'm moving on to Magic Items for a while, then maybe do some house rules, then go back and finish up the town."

you get bored doing only one kind of thing over and over again. Lemme just do what I want, when I want.

I'll figure out the structure as I go along.

BTW, THANK YOU DEVS for letting me drag/drop topics, I JUST noticed this was added. it's huge!

[adzling]

You are all conveniently ignoring the fact that one does not preclude the other.

Training wheels for beginners are a common feature of most complicated software.

You're also completely ignoring the struggle of learning realmworks that exists for beginners.

This is typical and to be expected but that does not make it correct.

That is the problem of offering potential fixes to problems, the readers react to the potential solution rather than first recognizing the deficit.

It's why I try to avoid suggesting solutions without spending the time to fully consider them.

Unfortunately I fell into that trap in responding to some of the other more insistent members of the community.

So in summation: from the responses here and anecdotal evidence available in the community realmworks is very hard to approach / use for beginners and this is primarily due to the interface abdicating it's responsibility of actually helping the user.

If Realmworks doesn't find a way to cater to the beginner it risks irrelevance/ slow development cycles.

I will stop replying to this thread now as the respondents are completely talking past myself and the other noobs who have posted here.

thanks and good night

[davidp]

I am curious how much it helps for the dialogs that Realm Works presents when you enter a new area for the first time that has the option to not show again. Is it that the text is totally unhelpful? Is it that you, as a new user, see the text there and figure you don't need to read it so dismiss it right away, clicking the "Don't show again" option? Are users aware they can bring up the text again by clicking on the ? icon in the various areas?

I would say if it is that the text is unhelpful, then maybe the text needs to be changed. If it is a case of users clicking through without reading it, would they have the patience to follow through a wizard for setting things up?

[monsterfurby]

TL;DR: The discussion is derailing a bit, so here's a suggestion: could we have the ability to start a blank Realm without predefined snippet types etc. or at least the ability to safely delete the predefined ones from a single realm?

___________


Since the reply was partly to some points I raised (and I just now dropped by to read it), I'd like to thank Joe for the detailed response on page 4.

As for the overall discussion, I feel like the past few pages of this thread saw some frustration over entirely different points getting mixed up. There are several things at work here:

- Design: Look and feel.

- Usability: Ease of use, as in "how easy or difficult is it for a user to put a certain intention to use the software into practice"

- Functionality: Spectrum of core functions

- Content: Additional content created using the core functionality

- Accessibility: Learning curve and motivation for new users to learn using the tool. Most importantly: compared to alternatives, e.g. putting the information into a Wiki or Roll20 notes

Of course all of these are interconnected, but the discussion is not as simple as "functionality vs pretty interface", there's more to it than that. The decisive point is the one where a user has to decide whether the added functionality of the software is worth using it over something else, and I for example currently find Roll20 far more usable than RealmWorks. It's inherently online, so my players can see the stuff I show them, it doesn't require me to "predict" what kinds of article templates I will use, and being HTML5-based, it generally operates a lot more swiftly than most offline applications do as a general rule.

I'm rambling a bit, but that's also because I am trying to sort out myself what RealmWorks is actually good at. That would be:

- Presentation and sharing of pre-structured information (e.g. published adventures)
- Guideline for structuring information
- Record-keeping on sessions, characters, developments (the timeline is a beautiful tool...)

While I wouldn't use it, I think the content marketplace would probably play to the software's greatest strength, so I definitely see why it's high up on the priority list.

For completely custom campaigns and settings, I feel that quite a bit more of customization is necessary however, which brings me to an earlier point and also to basically the one petty gripe that keeps me from using Realm Works properly.

Originally Posted by Vargr

In order to make RW really help the creative process (everything I enter is my own stuff), it should be a blank canvas, not taking my hand and guide me or simplify (= not showing options). If that was the case I would end up making everything based on the same template. It would be dull and unimaginative.

Again, this is only my perspective, but while I agree that it should be a blank canvas, I also feel that it currently is not. I still cannot simply start a realm without predefined snippets and tags, and deleting those that have been built in deletes them for good, also from the template. *That* is actually one of the things that irritates me most from a usability standpoint and could feasibly be fixed - let users build their own structures instead of always starting them out with a predefined way of doing things!

Now, Disclaimer: I haven't used the software a lot within the past few patches, so this may have been changed in which case please feel free to correct me, but I'd really appreciate being able to have completely blank realms.

Sorry for the long rambling response. I'm done now. Promised.

[adzling]

They are mostly walls of text that I click through.
Occasionally I will stop and read them if I am totally lost.

IMHO this is another indication of abdication of the interface.

The value of this pop-up context sensitive information is directly related to how easy it is to digest.

Walls of text are not suitable for this type of use.

Much better would be a *very* short descriptor (one sentence or less) with a link to *more info*.

Walls of text do little to encourage their consumption, especially by beginners and are often a worse U.I. choice for beginners than nothing at all.

Originally Posted by davidp

I am curious how much it helps for the dialogs that Realm Works presents when you enter a new area for the first time that has the option to not show again. Is it that the text is totally unhelpful? Is it that you, as a new user, see the text there and figure you don't need to read it so dismiss it right away, clicking the "Don't show again" option? Are users aware they can bring up the text again by clicking on the ? icon in the various areas?

I would say if it is that the text is unhelpful, then maybe the text needs to be changed. If it is a case of users clicking through without reading it, would they have the patience to follow through a wizard for setting things up?

[Vargr]

@Adzling

1:

Because I happen to have a different opinion does not automatically mean I am wrong, ignorant or blatantly stupid. That is the feeling I get when I read your posts. If that is not what you mean, then try to rephrase what you are saying.

When commenting on those not agreeing with you, you sometimes use phrases as those below:

- common lack of knowledge

- demonstrates the commentators poor understanding

- You are all conveniently ignoring

- You're also completely ignoring

It doesn't make people more receptive of your views.

2:

The beginners you talk so much about actually happen to include me as well. Yes, I have owned RW for some time now, but have only recently had the time to work seriously with it. Just now I consider myself to have moved from beginner to the next step.

3:

You have argued for a simpler interface and a sort of step-by-step input-system and not until now have you - as far as I remember - mentioned, that you were indeed thinking of a dual system with both approaches available (reading through the thread again, I see that you hinted at it at one point).

More concrete suggestions as to how you envision what needs to be done would be helpful in stead of “The interface sucks, you will loose all your customers and all revenue because of it” (grossly paraphrasing, I know, sorry for that).

I might have completely mis-read you and it is possible that the above in no way reflects what you are trying to say – but that is how it came across to me.

[Vargr]

Originally Posted by monsterfurby

Again, this is only my perspective, but while I agree that it should be a blank canvas, I also feel that it currently is not. I still cannot simply start a realm without predefined snippets and tags, and deleting those that have been built in deletes them for good, also from the template. *That* is actually one of the things that irritates me most from a usability standpoint and could feasibly be fixed - let users build their own structures instead of always starting them out with a predefined way of doing things!

I can see your point.

I see the predefined structure as one way of organising things and I use it - it has improved some of the descriptions I enter.

On the other hand I also completely ignore some of the predefined snippets and tags (quiet a few of them, actually). The moment I decide they are not for me, they no longer bother me; I guess people are different in that aspect :-)

It is interesting, that the approach taken by LWD actually helps the beginner coming to terms with RW, its philosophy and possibilities.

[Parody]

Originally Posted by davidp

I am curious how much it helps for the dialogs that Realm Works presents when you enter a new area for the first time that has the option to not show again. Is it that the text is totally unhelpful?

I completely ignored them. They were annoying popup windows that did nothing but tell me what I just clicked on.

It didn't help that these windows used to be presented as an unmovable modal "dialog" with custom window borders that were the same color as the main window background.

I'm not sure that helps vs. seeing the experience of a much more recent new user, but perhaps it does.

Originally Posted by monsterfurby

(C)ould we have the ability to start a blank Realm without predefined snippet types etc. or at least the ability to safely delete the predefined ones from a single realm?

This would be nice, especially once we can reuse and share our own realm templates. You can hide the Globals, but that's not quite the same.

[Vargr]

Originally Posted by Parody

This would be nice, especially once we can reuse and share our own realm templates. You can hide the Globals, but that's not quite the same.

The problem with removing the pre-designed topics, tags, etc. will probably be that the market place content would not work in your realm.

The market place content needs to have a known framework on which to "hang" its information, at least as far as I understand.

Not arguing one way or the other here :-)