Lone Wolf Development Forums  

Go Back   Lone Wolf Development Forums > Realm Works Forums > Realm Works Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
adzling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 343

Old October 7th, 2016, 08:48 AM
I agree with Kathorus, I've learned to love Realmworks despite the glaring problems, deficiencies and continual delays.

However whenever I say anything less salutatory than "congrats!" the hardcore defenders/ apologists come out to silence any criticism.

It's trolling at it's worst imho.
adzling is offline   #191 Reply With Quote
Chemlak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 432

Old October 7th, 2016, 11:11 AM
You are all entitled to your opinions.

Not my fault that you're all wrong.

But I will try not to hold your wrongheadedness against you.

Or you.

You, though, make it very hard.

(That's what she said)

You're pretty awesome, in the other hand.

And you, yes, you, over there in the corner, you want calendars. You can stay.

You, on the other side of the curtain, don't care about calendars. You can stay, too.

We all want RW, fully functional and awesome, we just have differing ideas of how long we'll tolerate not getting it. And that's cool.

Chief Calendar Champion Chemlak

Join the unofficial Realm Works IRC channel! Join #realm-works
Chemlak is offline   #192 Reply With Quote
nodice
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 32

Old October 7th, 2016, 06:53 PM
Lol, what a thread. So substance, much angry.

I still remember the first time I saw a preview of RealmWorks. I was blown away. There is no doubt that it is amazing software. It's designed to facilitate *world-building* after all, and that is a fantastically large endeavor from the get-go. Knowing that RW was still in development, I purchased it anyway, despite being unemployed and quite poor at the time. My eager anticipation mounted to excitement as I opened the program and started exploring around it's inner workings for the first time. My excitement soon turned to anxiety over the incredibly complex array of tools as I wondered if I would ever get the chance to understand and use them all. I overcame that anxiety by deciding to use and practice on what I could understand by inputting as much of my campaign setting as I could. As much work as that can be, it is rewarding to see the matrices that you once contained in your head being backed up onto a third party that you can see and use.

Whilst it would be possible to end the story there and leave it at 'wonderful software, awesome experience' etc, most, dare I say, all people are inclined towards wanting more and better and many of those people will subconsciously be thinking of process improvements as they use any software, or even, perform any action. It is a part of seeing the potential behind something rather than just accepting things at face value.

Similarly, even without a mind incapable of settling on something as finished, when one finds specific elements that they would consider core to their gaming experience that are not supported by RW, then a compromise of needs/wants sets in. The amount that one must compromise whilst using RW is weighed up, either subconsciously or actively, against alternative options for campaign management.

During the last year that I have been patiently inputting my campaign setting into RW, I have been playing in games with friends who have purchased licenses or subscriptions to other similar-yet-different pieces of game enhancing software; in one game we use Fantasy Grounds; in another we use roll20.net. I was continually impressed by what my friends were able to do using their respective gaming tools, and throughout every session, I could not help but subconsciously track which parts of what my friends were bringing to the table I would or would not be able to do with RW.

Now, at this point I know a lot of you are thinking 'but those tools are different to RW, they are tabletop management, and RW is campaign management, they were never designed to be compared.' I am aware of this, but the truth of it is, that whilst RW is almost exclusively campaign management with a few tools which could be tweaked for tabletop management, those other 2, whilst being predominantly about tabletop management, still contain campaign management elements, limited but robust. And my friends have been using them and still making amazing, surprising, deep campaigns. They started off playing in them for free, and enjoyed them enough to decide to invest and our gaming groups have certainly reaped the benefits.

The reason I mention this essentially comes down to brand loyalty and marketing in general. Whilst RW may be the deepest, richest, most versatile tool for campaign management on the market at the moment, if points of customer inaccessibility prevent enough people buying into its development, it can easily get left behind by a leaner, more accessible approach which draws better funding to the point that it will eventually completely overtake RW even in its own domain. If it seems like I am painting a gloomy picture there, let me make myself clear, I am not suggesting this is currently happening or on the brink or anything like that.

What I am saying is that for most people, there is inevitably going to be a compromise that goes on in their heads with any software they decide to use to run an RPG. That compromise can for all intents and purposes be measured, and gets weighed against other options. Already the lack of tabletop management functionality in RW is a compromise which most of my friends are unwilling to make. Whilst of course purely anecdotal, it gives me personally the idea that I might be in the minority in preferring an intricate, powerful, subtle yet expansive campaign manager over a flashy tabletop dice roller++ program.

I think for me, seeing my friends run such amazing campaigns with what I had built up in my head to be inferior gaming software really got to me, and still does. No fault of LWD or RW, but I also have an added problem of having built my campaign premise around a function that does not even exist yet in RW(topic reveal by individual player), unbeknownst to me at the time of getting into this. So, scrap the campaign I've been working on, and run something simpler, or try to find a work around that keeps the same premise are two options. The former is not appealing to me, and if I did I would likely resort to just using roll20 so that I at least had the tabletop element built in, and well, the latter is where I run into people telling me that my feature request has already been mentioned, thanks, we're getting to it... in a few years. Of course that is not to say that there may not be other workarounds, but compared to what people grow accustomed to in terms of updates from larger companies, the pace of LWD updates requires a bit of getting used to.

Nevertheless, I am still building my campaign setting in RW in the belief that I will get some amazing play out of this tool. I have no doubt that once I have a critical mass of data entered, even without the feature that I need in order to play a particular game, I will find it within myself to let that desire go, as many have suggested I do, and find one of the many many other ways to enjoy RW. Ultimately though, that would be another big compromise, and by that point may well be accompanied by regret.

I appreciate that RW is still in development, I think most people here do. But everyone has different patience thresholds and tolerances for compromise. On top of that, everyone will express those varying opinions in further varying ways. Although there are forums where there are trolls just 'whinging' about anything and everything devs do or dont do, and those places are usually quite toxic with a terrible signal/noise ratio, the contrary, where people have forced happiness and get flamed for any perceived criticism by zealously apologetic users is no less welcoming.

People have the same right to criticize as they do to compliment, particularly if they have paid for a product. Criticism need not be the negative thing that many make it out to be. I for one have seen Rob take constructive, and subjectively nonconstructive criticism both equally calmly and objectively. Its as if he were a grown adult trained in PR with a stake in what he does. Unfortunately not all forum members will react to each other with such pragmatic objectivity, in fact many invest themselves emotionally and subjectivize criticism against something they believe in. This is a big barrier to letting all be heard in a civilized and respectful way. If people really want to help the company or the product and invest time into defending them online, then at least familiarize yourself with how customer criticism can work in a market environment; criticism can be opportunity, just receiving it is market intelligence. There are companies that will pay their customers to 'give feedback' aka criticize them.

If you find yourself thinking that someone else is being negative or 'criticising' and you find yourself wanting to get angry at them for that, just chill out, take a step back, think to yourself that there could be any number of reasons why they sound that way, from language differences, to having been through different experiences. Put your 'constructive lens' glasses on, and just filter out what you don't like and take the good because censuring doesn't help anyone.

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.
nodice is offline   #193 Reply With Quote
EightBitz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,458

Old October 8th, 2016, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodice View Post

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.
You used grammar, punctuation, sentences and paragraphs. It may have been long, but it wasn't a "wall of text." I reward you with 2,000 XP.
EightBitz is offline   #194 Reply With Quote
Thomssen
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4

Old October 8th, 2016, 08:29 AM
If you think this has taken a while, be glad you aren't in the Mekton Zero KS...three years and ZERO to show for it...

This is a program, and one that involves external entities. Anytime you are dealing with groups outside of your organization, it will take longer. Plus, it is refreshing to have a company take the line of "do it right the first time" instead of rushing something out and then spend (sometimes) years pushing out patches to fix it. I'm happy with what has been provided so far. Sure, it would be great to have the Content Market now, but the functionality provided to this point has impressed me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nodice View Post
Lol, what a thread. So substance, much angry.

I still remember the first time I saw a preview of RealmWorks. I was blown away. There is no doubt that it is amazing software. It's designed to facilitate *world-building* after all, and that is a fantastically large endeavor from the get-go. Knowing that RW was still in development, I purchased it anyway, despite being unemployed and quite poor at the time. My eager anticipation mounted to excitement as I opened the program and started exploring around it's inner workings for the first time. My excitement soon turned to anxiety over the incredibly complex array of tools as I wondered if I would ever get the chance to understand and use them all. I overcame that anxiety by deciding to use and practice on what I could understand by inputting as much of my campaign setting as I could. As much work as that can be, it is rewarding to see the matrices that you once contained in your head being backed up onto a third party that you can see and use.

Whilst it would be possible to end the story there and leave it at 'wonderful software, awesome experience' etc, most, dare I say, all people are inclined towards wanting more and better and many of those people will subconsciously be thinking of process improvements as they use any software, or even, perform any action. It is a part of seeing the potential behind something rather than just accepting things at face value.

Similarly, even without a mind incapable of settling on something as finished, when one finds specific elements that they would consider core to their gaming experience that are not supported by RW, then a compromise of needs/wants sets in. The amount that one must compromise whilst using RW is weighed up, either subconsciously or actively, against alternative options for campaign management.

During the last year that I have been patiently inputting my campaign setting into RW, I have been playing in games with friends who have purchased licenses or subscriptions to other similar-yet-different pieces of game enhancing software; in one game we use Fantasy Grounds; in another we use roll20.net. I was continually impressed by what my friends were able to do using their respective gaming tools, and throughout every session, I could not help but subconsciously track which parts of what my friends were bringing to the table I would or would not be able to do with RW.

Now, at this point I know a lot of you are thinking 'but those tools are different to RW, they are tabletop management, and RW is campaign management, they were never designed to be compared.' I am aware of this, but the truth of it is, that whilst RW is almost exclusively campaign management with a few tools which could be tweaked for tabletop management, those other 2, whilst being predominantly about tabletop management, still contain campaign management elements, limited but robust. And my friends have been using them and still making amazing, surprising, deep campaigns. They started off playing in them for free, and enjoyed them enough to decide to invest and our gaming groups have certainly reaped the benefits.

The reason I mention this essentially comes down to brand loyalty and marketing in general. Whilst RW may be the deepest, richest, most versatile tool for campaign management on the market at the moment, if points of customer inaccessibility prevent enough people buying into its development, it can easily get left behind by a leaner, more accessible approach which draws better funding to the point that it will eventually completely overtake RW even in its own domain. If it seems like I am painting a gloomy picture there, let me make myself clear, I am not suggesting this is currently happening or on the brink or anything like that.

What I am saying is that for most people, there is inevitably going to be a compromise that goes on in their heads with any software they decide to use to run an RPG. That compromise can for all intents and purposes be measured, and gets weighed against other options. Already the lack of tabletop management functionality in RW is a compromise which most of my friends are unwilling to make. Whilst of course purely anecdotal, it gives me personally the idea that I might be in the minority in preferring an intricate, powerful, subtle yet expansive campaign manager over a flashy tabletop dice roller++ program.

I think for me, seeing my friends run such amazing campaigns with what I had built up in my head to be inferior gaming software really got to me, and still does. No fault of LWD or RW, but I also have an added problem of having built my campaign premise around a function that does not even exist yet in RW(topic reveal by individual player), unbeknownst to me at the time of getting into this. So, scrap the campaign I've been working on, and run something simpler, or try to find a work around that keeps the same premise are two options. The former is not appealing to me, and if I did I would likely resort to just using roll20 so that I at least had the tabletop element built in, and well, the latter is where I run into people telling me that my feature request has already been mentioned, thanks, we're getting to it... in a few years. Of course that is not to say that there may not be other workarounds, but compared to what people grow accustomed to in terms of updates from larger companies, the pace of LWD updates requires a bit of getting used to.

Nevertheless, I am still building my campaign setting in RW in the belief that I will get some amazing play out of this tool. I have no doubt that once I have a critical mass of data entered, even without the feature that I need in order to play a particular game, I will find it within myself to let that desire go, as many have suggested I do, and find one of the many many other ways to enjoy RW. Ultimately though, that would be another big compromise, and by that point may well be accompanied by regret.

I appreciate that RW is still in development, I think most people here do. But everyone has different patience thresholds and tolerances for compromise. On top of that, everyone will express those varying opinions in further varying ways. Although there are forums where there are trolls just 'whinging' about anything and everything devs do or dont do, and those places are usually quite toxic with a terrible signal/noise ratio, the contrary, where people have forced happiness and get flamed for any perceived criticism by zealously apologetic users is no less welcoming.

People have the same right to criticize as they do to compliment, particularly if they have paid for a product. Criticism need not be the negative thing that many make it out to be. I for one have seen Rob take constructive, and subjectively nonconstructive criticism both equally calmly and objectively. Its as if he were a grown adult trained in PR with a stake in what he does. Unfortunately not all forum members will react to each other with such pragmatic objectivity, in fact many invest themselves emotionally and subjectivize criticism against something they believe in. This is a big barrier to letting all be heard in a civilized and respectful way. If people really want to help the company or the product and invest time into defending them online, then at least familiarize yourself with how customer criticism can work in a market environment; criticism can be opportunity, just receiving it is market intelligence. There are companies that will pay their customers to 'give feedback' aka criticize them.

If you find yourself thinking that someone else is being negative or 'criticising' and you find yourself wanting to get angry at them for that, just chill out, take a step back, think to yourself that there could be any number of reasons why they sound that way, from language differences, to having been through different experiences. Put your 'constructive lens' glasses on, and just filter out what you don't like and take the good because censuring doesn't help anyone.

Also, apologies for wall of text, lol.
Thomssen is offline   #195 Reply With Quote
Viking2054
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: California
Posts: 293

Old October 8th, 2016, 01:25 PM
You actually read all that and didn't reward yourself with a Klondike bar?
Viking2054 is offline   #196 Reply With Quote
Acenoid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 779

Old October 8th, 2016, 02:17 PM
liked the post. I hope RW will add the open features soon and hopefully take a few featzuures for presenting the data to the players features up as well.

Join the (unofficial) Realm-Works IRC Chat: #realm-works on the Rizon Network (https://wiki.rizon.net/index.php?title=Servers)
-> Browser Client: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.rizon.net
Acenoid is offline   #197 Reply With Quote
kbs666
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,687

Old October 8th, 2016, 03:25 PM
When/if the next survey comes around I strongly suggest we all vote for integration with one or more of the VTT packages and individual reveal. Besides custom calendars those features seem to be the biggest weaknesses of RW.
kbs666 is offline   #198 Reply With Quote
Acenoid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 779

Old October 8th, 2016, 03:44 PM
Honestly I pay enough money for all the books and enough time to enter my own campaign data, I also play only offline, it would be enough for me if the standalone tool RW would work nicely with showing the maps and images to players. I posted this in the past (like a super quick reveal without confirmation , full screen ecetera) but Iam in the minority I think. I wouldnt like to administer , pay and work with an online vtt as well (that nobody of my players use)

For me it's most important that everything is easy to enter / edit / work with. I would also like to customize the icons a bit...

But I agree , that I will put my votes on the next survey on the next feature that is most important to me. Distributing my votes in the way I did, seemed to return results that I did not really like

Also I wanted to add: The features that help RW In the long run should be implemented, I would not like to see this project fail after all that time.

Join the (unofficial) Realm-Works IRC Chat: #realm-works on the Rizon Network (https://wiki.rizon.net/index.php?title=Servers)
-> Browser Client: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.rizon.net
Acenoid is offline   #199 Reply With Quote
AEIOU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,147

Old October 8th, 2016, 04:31 PM
@Acenoid: Methinks you could find things to love from a VTT, even if you don't use it as intended. I find d20pro indispensable even when I don't play online. Others prefer to use HeroLab to track combat. Don't write off features you haven't had a chance to use.
AEIOU is offline   #200 Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
wolflair.com copyright ©1998-2016 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. View our Privacy Policy here.