GURPS Lite

[Noctifer]

I was thinking about taking a crack at expanding your work to include data from GURPS 4th Edition Core (and, eventually, beyond). Before I started digging though, am I duplicating anyone else's effort? Is GURPS Lite for Hero Lab still under development?

Thanks for any information you can swing my way.

[Kairos]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

I was thinking about taking a crack at expanding your work to include data from GURPS 4th Edition Core (and, eventually, beyond). Before I started digging though, am I duplicating anyone else's effort? Is GURPS Lite for Hero Lab still under development?

Thanks for any information you can swing my way.

I took a new job in April which has really depleted my capacity to work on my rulesets. I'm not sure anyone is working on anything at this point.

The biggest hurdle in going from Lite to regular would be overhauling how things like skill pre-reqs work. In Lite, it's pretty static. In regular GURPS, it can vary greatly and include different pre-reqs at different values. So all that has to be ripped out and redone. Not impossible, but I've just not had any time to devote to the project these past six months or so.

[Noctifer]

No worries, I'm digging into it now. Though I've started a couple of projects in the past and done a lot to add to the WoD HeroLab rules for my own use, this'll be my first major project, so be prepared to have your (and anyone else willing to chime in) brain picked as time permits

First up: Adding a logo.

Second: Updating the descriptions of the existing Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills (and using that to identify what I need to expand on)

I'll start up a new thread when I've something more substantive to report.

[EightBitz]

Originally Posted by Noctifer

No worries, I'm digging into it now. Though I've started a couple of projects in the past and done a lot to add to the WoD HeroLab rules for my own use, this'll be my first major project, so be prepared to have your (and anyone else willing to chime in) brain picked as time permits

First up: Adding a logo.

Second: Updating the descriptions of the existing Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills (and using that to identify what I need to expand on)

I'll start up a new thread when I've something more substantive to report.

Are you just adding content from 4th Edition, or are you intending to do a full 4th Edition data set? I ask, because one of the differences is that in 4th Edition, the secondary attributes, while still being derived from primary attributes, can also be separately modified.

For instance, one can spend points on directly increasting HP, Will, Per, FP, Basic Move, Basic Speed, etc.

I made some progress on this point, though my attempt at doing so was awkward, clumsy and imperfect. But I can see if I still have the files. Thought what I did is probably very rudimentary.

[ibecker]

Hi, folks. I'm a fan of GURPS, and with some free time coming up, I was going to offer to assist with adding GURPS to Hero Lab. Before I did that, I wanted to check with SJGames that it would be OK with them (since there's no equivalent to the OGL for GURPS).

Their response was that this is definitely *not* allowed, per their Online Policy. In fact, they went so far as to say that, since they sell their own Character Generator, they would consider a competing program (including GURPS for Hero Lab) to be "piracy". The person I communicated with was very nice about it, but very clear: SJGames does not like the idea of a community addition to Hero Lab for GURPS.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't comment on whether their legal argument would stand up, but I wanted to warn you all. I believe that people here have good intentions, and just want to help their fellow gamers and promote their favorite games. I'd hate to see people here get into trouble because the publishers take a different view.

[Kairos]

Originally Posted by ibecker

Hi, folks. I'm a fan of GURPS, and with some free time coming up, I was going to offer to assist with adding GURPS to Hero Lab. Before I did that, I wanted to check with SJGames that it would be OK with them (since there's no equivalent to the OGL for GURPS).

Their response was that this is definitely *not* allowed, per their Online Policy. In fact, they went so far as to say that, since they sell their own Character Generator, they would consider a competing program (including GURPS for Hero Lab) to be "piracy". The person I communicated with was very nice about it, but very clear: SJGames does not like the idea of a community addition to Hero Lab for GURPS.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't comment on whether their legal argument would stand up, but I wanted to warn you all. I believe that people here have good intentions, and just want to help their fellow gamers and promote their favorite games. I'd hate to see people here get into trouble because the publishers take a different view.

Fair enough. Removed. I thought the GURPS LITE data files fell squarely under the following section of their online policy, but if they say it doesn't, then it doesn't:

Create a character generator or other game aid?

If you mean a "game aid" or "player aid" program, yes, you certainly can, if it's for a PC-type computer and you include the appropriate notices. We currently do not allow "apps" for mobile devices to be created using our content or trademarks. Yes, this seems like an arbitrary distinction, and as we learn more and the legal and technical issues become more clear, we may be able to change this, but please don't write us saying "I want to write an app, so change your policy," because the decision is not related to the number of pleas we get from would-be app coders. Sorry.

We want to ENCOURAGE our fans to create these programs, share them with the community, and have fun doing it. If you want to charge money for a game aid based on our work, the Online Policy does NOT apply . . . you must either get a license from us, or sell us the game aid for distribution as a regular product, and either way we'll hold you to professional standards. Email licensing@sjgames.com with a formal proposal letter.

We do, however, have some advice for creators of game aid programs. First, provide documentation. Some simple instructions on how to use the most basic features will be a big help to users. Second, support your creation.

[ChrisRevocateur]

Originally Posted by ibecker

since they sell their own Character Generator

Unfortunately, at least IMHO, their character generator sucks.

[ibecker]

Originally Posted by Kairos

I thought the GURPS LITE data files fell squarely under the following section of their online policy, but if they say it doesn't, then it doesn't:

I agree - I thought the same thing. I figured I'd ask them anyway, just to be on the safe side. I pointed out that I thought the Hero Lab matched their description of the allowed "game aids" perfectly. Their answer:

"I understand where this would seem confusing, and would be happy to explain. A game aid, in this case, would be something like a dice roller, creating your own campaign, or something else minor. We actually sell our own character generator, so creating your own is currently viewed as piracy by our company, even if there are differences in format.

It would be like opening a burger stand next to a Burger King*, then advertising and selling Whoppers. Burger King won't like it, and would probably shut you down. On the other hand, if you had a lemonade stand across the street, that would a) enhance many burger-consumers' experiences, and b) not detract from Burger King's Whopper sales. Even if Burger King sells its own lemonade, it will be a different recipe, and lemonade is not something that can be copyrighted. You might even have Burger King employees buy the lemonade to drink with their lunch.

So basically, we want to encourage people to set up lemonade stands, car washes, and bake sales for GURPS. Just please don't sell our Whoppers.

*This reference is intended for educational purposes only. It in no way expresses my or Steve Jackson Games' opinions of Burger King, Whoppers, or lemonade stands. This analogy is currently in beta-testing; please let us know if it is too confusing, or could use some tweaking."
- Max Clontz (max@sjgames)


I agree with ChrisRevocateur that the currently available tools for GURPS leave a lot to be desired. I think that adding GURPS support to Hero Lab would only be a boost for GURPS itself. It is, however, their game, and without something equivalent to the OGL, they have the right to set whatever rules they like.

[Kairos]

Originally Posted by ibecker

...they have the right to set whatever rules they like.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[ChrisRevocateur]

They are trying to get people to buy their character builder, which no one even wants (it's no easier than just doing it manually on paper). They're shooting themselves in the foot.

Their analogy is flawed too. It's more like someone opening a build your own burger shop next to Burger King, and one of your customers saying to all the other customers "Hey, these are the things on the Whopper!" Still something that they might want to stop, but LoneWolf isn't making money off of Whoppers, they're making money off allowing their customers to make the burger they want. The "whoppers" these customers make have better ingredients than the original too.

Also, in their direct communication they say that they mean simple digital tools, not character generators, but their published public policy specifically calls out character generators. I may like GURPS and Munchkin, but I like SJG less and less every time I hear about them.