Starfinder and Pathfinder 2E in Herolab Classic?

[flyteach]

Usable on all devices as long as the server is up. As we saw last weekend, there was a 3 hour outage on Saturday. In that case, it was usable on NO devices.

[darkops]

Originally Posted by Toblakai

There is definitely a group of people who don’t like change. Just read the forums.
There are the very small group of people that live in the sticks and have crappy internet (not sure what they do to update hlc maybe drive into town?)
There are the people that can’t afford 25/yr but they shouldn’t be buying hlc then either.
There there are a few that, um, not sure what they don’t like.


HLO is more accessible too, usable on any device with a browser. Not sure if lwd is going to make apple’s 64 bit cutoff date so may lose Mac support for hlc too.

I think you are really not giving the customer base a fair shake. Change is not inherently good and not liking the change in direction doesn't make your critique baseless. The flip side of that coin is me calling you a hipster or a bandwagon jumper. Someone who always gets the newest iPhone even if it functionally worse/equivalent. So lets avoid the implicit ad hoc attacks/writ-offs by making up group identities.

Lets also avoid trying to assess the size of your bins. You say a small minority doesn't have reliable internet. I counter that I frequently play in areas with little or no reliable internet. This includes gaming conventions (where internet is available ~40% of the time, but even when available the bandwidth is quite limited - especially at large cons), gaming stores (no internet in the ones I frequent), or people's basements (most have internet, 20% are not reliable). Beyond the reliability issue, not everyone has endless internet data plans (via phone/tablet/at a private residence home). In Canada we pay some of the highest bills for mobile data and internet plans in the suite of 'classic' 1st world countries. As well sometimes to run my laptop all day for a convention I have to go into airplane mode/dim brightness because the table we play at isn't within 3m of an outlet to keep my device charged for 14 hours of play. My anecdotal experience does not really suggest whether the number of people experiencing this issue is large or small. What it does say is that my desire for a HLC product is honest. HLO just doesn't work for me and my players. Without some statistical data, your comment about this being a small subset of people is making some big assumptions which are not self evident.

The subscription model is also loathsome. It isn't just $25.00/year. It is $25.00/year plus content. There is no guarantee that that fee stays the same over any amount of time and at the end of the day I don't own any of that material/content because I can't use it offline or without an off site server. How many online game servers do you that get pulled 5-10 years later and now you can't play the game you bought? What happens if the company goes belly up or they decide not to support it in the future? Will the allocated data/server space be available forever like an offline model? No. It is functionally a worse product. HLC you pay once for material in perpetuity. In HLO you pay that same amount AND a subscription fee which still doesn't guarantee any 'in perpetuity' because the logic is on a server you will never get access to. In every sphere of my life I will seek out option B through Z before I pay into a subscription model. In 6 more years will you still support the company pivoting to a new business model if they increase subscription costs to $100.00/year (despite you sinking hundred of dollars in content costs already) and also move to mass loot box drops for new data packages (or is it only some 'newer' business models that are 'okay').

The next bin is your "some people just don't like it". The product is more expensive, for less functionality (both core critical functionality like offline play or STABLE online play), making a change no one asked for. These are solid arguments to stay away from the product. Just because you can't fathom someone not liking a product doesn't make it a gem.

[bruuuuuu]

Originally Posted by darkops

The next bin is your "some people just don't like it". The product is more expensive, for less functionality (both core critical functionality like offline play or STABLE online play), making a change no one asked for. These are solid arguments to stay away from the product. Just because you can't fathom someone not liking a product doesn't make it a gem.

And, before anyone jumps in with the "Android was the most requested feature" argument, there are non-networked, stand-alone apps for Android (Paizo's Adventure Card Game for Android, anyone?) that deal with datasets as large as HLC. Using the product on tablets was already possible with the iPad. Requesting Android as a supported platform does not necessitate an online-only application.

I'm not super-thrilled by the online-only model here, either, and darkops makes good points, the most concerning is (and I summarize) "What happens to our access to our purchases if Lone Wolf goes away or changes their business model?" I'm remaining very cautiously optimistic, but this fear is hanging out there.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by bruuuuuu

"What happens to our access to our purchases if Lone Wolf goes away or changes their business model?" I'm remaining very cautiously optimistic, but this fear is hanging out there.

But this question is exactly the same for HLC. HLC uses licensed servers to be usable and if those servers turn off because LW goes away you still lose access to HL.

[vardeman]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

But this question is exactly the same for HLC. HLC uses licensed servers to be usable and if those servers turn off because LW goes away you still lose access to HL.

Does HLC check the server every time it runs or only when it updates? I was under the impression only when it updates because I can use it without internet access.

[dballing]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

But this question is exactly the same for HLC. HLC uses licensed servers to be usable and if those servers turn off because LW goes away you still lose access to HL.

True, but that will be easily remedied by a hack, I'm sure. Alternatively, LW could go away pushing out one final release that removes the licensing server from the picture, so you'd have access to "what you currently have" but no more.

Not an option they have in a model where they need to physically maintain the server the app runs on.

[Toblakai]

Originally Posted by vardeman

Does HLC check the server every time it runs or only when it updates? I was under the impression only when it updates because I can use it without internet access.

What if you buy a new computer?

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by vardeman

Does HLC check the server every time it runs or only when it updates? I was under the impression only when it updates because I can use it without internet access.

It checks when anything major changes on your PC. Get a large Win10 update it checks. Change to much hardware it checks.

Meaning if LW servers go away you have X amount of time before HL falls into demo mode and cant be reactitvated.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by dballing

True, but that will be easily remedied by a hack, I'm sure. Alternatively, LW could go away pushing out one final release that removes the licensing server from the picture, so you'd have access to "what you currently have" but no more.

Not an option they have in a model where they need to physically maintain the server the app runs on.

And then Windows 2020 comes out and HL binary is not compatable and the software is dead.

I am very sorry but counting on HACKS to keep using software is stupid. I would much rather pay LW WAY more money and keep them in business then HOPE a hack comes out to keep my software working.

[Toblakai]

Originally Posted by darkops

Lets also avoid trying to assess the size of your bins. You say a small minority doesn't have reliable internet. I counter that I frequently play in areas with little or no reliable internet. This includes gaming conventions (where internet is available ~40% of the time, but even when available the bandwidth is quite limited - especially at large cons), gaming stores (no internet in the ones I frequent), or people's basements (most have internet, 20% are not reliable). Beyond the reliability issue, not everyone has endless internet data plans (via phone/tablet/at a private residence home). In Canada we pay some of the highest bills for mobile data and internet plans in the suite of 'classic' 1st world countries.

HLO uses sub 100k per hour for typical use according to a previous post by a LWD dev, which is quite small. Also I call BS about the bad internet at conventions. I heard about how horrible the internet access was at Gen Con, well I went there for the first time this year, never had a problem with connecting. I go to a local convention, and I do remember having internet issues there, but that was 10 years ago, haven't had any issues in the past 5 years or more. Maybe people are just remembering bad old experiences?