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SHeston
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Join Date: May 2017
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Old August 13th, 2023, 10:22 AM
I have a hybrid license with PF 1e ruleset. I have provided the pertinent PC details for the necessary Land/Fly Speed calculations. The issue seems to occur when the Armor ON (Adjusted Speed) and Fly Speed calculations that are in question - see Configurations #3 and #4 below.

I imported the Classic .por file to my Online account and verified both systems are calculating the same. My DM does not use HL and he is just as perplexed and I am and we have dug into the PF 1E sourcebook rules to understand the discrepancy between HL's calculations and what we expect.

What are we missing? Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Pertinent PC Details:
Half-Fiend Drow Bloodrager 4/Champion 1
Base Land Speed: 30 ft
Fast Movement (Bloodrager): +10 ft
STR: 20 (+5); DEX: 16 (+3)
Fly Skill: +14 = +4(Ranks)+3(Class Skill)+3(DEX)+4(Good Manuverability)
+11 = +4(Ranks)+3(Class Skill)+3(DEX)+4(Good Manuverability)-3[ACP(Armor Worn)]
Encumberance @ 49 lbs [Light Load <=133 lbs; Med Load <=266 lbs; Heavy Load <= 400 lbs]
Carrying: +1 Breastplate (30 lbs); +1 Bardiche (14 lbs); Handy Haversack (5 lbs)
Armor: +1 Breastplate (Slows)
Mythic Path Ability - Impossible Speed
No Adjustments or Conditions of any kind are Active

Configuration #1: [Armor OFF and NO Mythic Point Burn]
Land Speed: 70 ft [Base Land Speed @ 30 ft, Bloodrager - Fast Movement @ +10 ft, Impossible Speed @ +30 ft]
Fly Speed: 140 ft [Land Speed x2]
* Note: HL Calcs shown. Expectation - Land Speed: 70; Fly Speed: 140 ft)

Configuration #2: [Armor OFF and 1 Mythic Point Burn]
Land Speed: 80 ft [Base Land Speed @ 30 ft, Bloodrager - Fast Movement @ +10 ft, Impossible Speed @ +30 ft, Impossible Speed (MP): +10 ft * Tier (x1) for 1 Hr]
Fly Speed: 160 ft [Land Speed x2]
* Note: HL Calcs shown. Expectation - Land Speed: 80; Fly Speed: 160 ft)

Configuration #3: - [Armor ON and NO Mythic Point Burn]
Land Speed: 70 / 50 ft [Base Land Speed @ 30 ft, Bloodrager - Fast Movement @ +10 ft, Impossible Speed @ +30 ft, Breastplate Armor Speed Adj @ -10 ft]
Fly Speed: 140 ft [Land Speed x2]
* Note: HL Calcs shown. Expectation - Land Speed: 70 / 60; Fly Speed: 120 ft)

Configuration #4: - [Armor ON and 1 Mythic Point Burn]
Land Speed: 80 / 55 ft [Base Land Speed @ 30 ft, Bloodrager - Fast Movement @ +10 ft, Impossible Speed @ +30 ft, Breastplate Armor Speed Adj @ -10 ft, Impossible Speed (MP): +10 ft * Tier (x1) for 1 Hr]
Fly Speed: 160 ft (Good) [Land Speed x2]
* Note: HL Calcs shown. Expectation - Land Speed: 80 / 70; Fly Speed: 140 ft)

Last edited by SHeston; August 14th, 2023 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Added STR and Encumberance limits
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Farling
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Old August 14th, 2023, 01:07 AM
Is your carrying capacity still light load with the extra 30 lbs of the breastplate?

(79 lbs requires STR of 17 or higher to not be medium encumbered: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-d...ying-capacity/)

Medium encumbrance would reduce your speed by the extra 10 ft.

Farling

Author of the Realm Works Import tool, Realm Works Output tool and Realm Works to Foundry module

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SHeston
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Old August 14th, 2023, 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
Is your carrying capacity still light load with the extra 30 lbs of the breastplate?

(79 lbs requires STR of 17 or higher to not be medium encumbered: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-d...ying-capacity/)

Medium encumbrance would reduce your speed by the extra 10 ft.
Yes. He has a STR of 20, so his encumberance is way below the higher end of the light load limit and was already taken into consideration. FWIW, I edited my OP to include that as info for future review.

Thanks for your thoughts!
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Sendric
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Old August 14th, 2023, 11:44 AM
Is it not just the Slow effect from the armor?
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SHeston
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Old August 14th, 2023, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sendric View Post
Is it not just the Slow effect from the armor?
That is what I am trying to determine.

Per the Armor and Shields table in PF1E CRB, Breastplate drops movement for Base Land Speed of 30 ft to 20 ft. Now Fast Movement specifically states that the +10 ft increase is to be applied BEFORE any other adjustments for encumberance and armor worn. It also states it stacks with other bonuses. That would bump to 40 ft. Perhaps donning the breastplate is ignoring the Fast movement by setting the Base Land Speed to 20 ft. That would explain the 20 ft drop for Configuration #3. As for Configuration #4, expending a Mythic Point only boostds speed by 5ft, not 10 ft, like the text says? Now that is a mystery in and of itself. I suspect the armor is the most likely culprit in how the speed is calculated.

In Configuration #3, when donning armor, movement drops from 70 ft to 50 ft, a 20 ft difference.

In Configuration #4, while wearing armor and expending a Mythic Point to gain and additional 10 ft / Tier of movement from Impossible Speed, it bumps up from 50 ft to 55 ft. Why just a 5 ft bump and being 25 ft less than wearing no armor and boosting Impossible Speed (80 ft)?

Either something is NOT getting included like it should OR I wasted taking an ability that is just being ignored altogether.

Is there a way to step through the "code" to see the values being applied when armor is applied or removed?
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Mathias
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Old August 14th, 2023, 02:56 PM
If you want us to take a look, you can submit it through the support option in the gear at the top right of HLO - that will allow you to attach the character so that we don't need to spend time rebuilding it (which also helps if there's something else affecting things that you didn't identify). And please make sure to explain expected vs. what HLO shows - what is the difference, and why do you think your scenario is correct. Also helpful would be to include the bonus types on each of these speed adjustments - are any of them enhancement, racial, etc.? Having multiple configurations really confuses the issue - see if you can isolate just a single scenario that illustrates the bug you're trying to report.



For getting more detailed information, in HLC, have you taken a look at the debug information for the speeds (Develop menu...Enable Data File Debugging), and then right-click the speed entry in the Basics summary to look at the field values that make up that pick.
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SHeston
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Old August 15th, 2023, 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
If you want us to take a look, you can submit it through the support option in the gear at the top right of HLO - that will allow you to attach the character so that we don't need to spend time rebuilding it (which also helps if there's something else affecting things that you didn't identify). And please make sure to explain expected vs. what HLO shows - what is the difference, and why do you think your scenario is correct. Also helpful would be to include the bonus types on each of these speed adjustments - are any of them enhancement, racial, etc.? Having multiple configurations really confuses the issue - see if you can isolate just a single scenario that illustrates the bug you're trying to report.
Done!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
For getting more detailed information, in HLC, have you taken a look at the debug information for the speeds (Develop menu...Enable Data File Debugging), and then right-click the speed entry in the Basics summary to look at the field values that make up that pick.
I had the debugging on, but didn't know exactly how to see the debugging info. That's totally cool. Here are the results. Still doesn't explain why tSpdArmRed is -20.

Armor Only.PNG
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Parody
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Old August 15th, 2023, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHeston View Post
Configuration #3: - [Armor ON and NO Mythic Point Burn]
Land Speed: 70 / 50 ft [Base Land Speed @ 30 ft, Bloodrager - Fast Movement @ +10 ft, Impossible Speed @ +30 ft, Breastplate Armor Speed Adj @ -10 ft ]
Fly Speed: 140 ft [Land Speed x2]
* Note: HL Calcs shown. Expectation - Land Speed: 70 / 60; Fly Speed: 120 ft)
As your speed goes up so does the penalty for armor. See these two rules entries: (links go to AoN)

Bonuses to Speed: Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack. (Core Rulebook, p. 192)

Armor and Encumbrance for Other Base Speeds. This is a table with the speed reduction amounts for speeds from 5 to 120. (Core Rulebook, p. 170)

According to the chart, when your modified speed is 70 your reduced speed is 50; for 80 it's 55.

Hope this helps.

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SHeston
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Old August 15th, 2023, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parody View Post
As your speed goes up so does the penalty for armor. See these two rules entries: (links go to AoN)

Bonuses to Speed: Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack. (Core Rulebook, p. 192)

Armor and Encumbrance for Other Base Speeds. This is a table with the speed reduction amounts for speeds from 5 to 120. (Core Rulebook, p. 170)

According to the chart, when your modified speed is 70 your reduced speed is 50; for 80 it's 55.

Hope this helps.
Perfect! Thank you so much for this reference. Now it all makes sense.
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