What does Pathfinder 2nd Edition mean for RW?

[daplunk]

True but D20Pro went the other way round.

I doubt WOTC would worry about this. They are clearly the more popular system and having their brand present in the popular systems used by their competitors players opens up the door to try and attract those players over to the brand as well.

[Valyar]

Things get darker and fragmented.

[gaffneyks]

WOTC got a bad rep by partnering with software companies that could not deliver.

Currently the general perception is LWD has missed date after date and has not delivered on the content market.

After getting burned in the past, i doubt WOTC even considers a partnership with LWD until the Content Market is actually live, as of right now it is fictional.

If the Content Market goes live, works and is a success. I would expect WOTC to jump on board as quick as possible.

Their parent company seems to jump on anything that makes the money. Comic Books, Candy, A MMO, Iphone games, Deodorant. I am shocked after the success of a certain kickstarter they have not tried to focus on a live stream .....

[daplunk]

Agree with that for sure. LWD have done themselves no favours in current years and need to put a foot forward to restore confidence. Even if the foot doesn't have a shoe on.

WOTC have shown that they are willing to work with anyone who is serious and have a workable product as long as they are willing to pay. They would not have licensed three separate VTT's if that was not the case. DnDBeyond will possibly be the spanner in the cog though.

[Dark Lord Galen]

Warning a slight soap box ahead... hehhe

Well don't know about the rest of you "old gits", "Coots", "1/2 priced movie goers".. I like to consider us those Ancient Gronard Gargantuan Dragons that sit on our various hordes in whatever realm is our preference (for me that's the First and Best.... Greyhawk) and show these "hairling adventurers" the meaning of why it's Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons & trolls nor Dungeons & vampires etc, but DRAGONS.......... to be feared, respected and inspiring awe and wisdom when they come forth from their lair !!! .. Maawaaahhaaahahaha ...... Sorry lost control there for a bit... hehe

Originally Posted by daplunk

I doubt WOTC would worry about this. They are clearly the more popular system and having their brand present in the popular systems used by their competitors players opens up the door to try and attract those players over to the brand as well.

As to this,,, a few charts (while colorful) one must consider the source data.... I assure you WOC is Worried.... personally knowing executives in both camps.
Since the release of OGL of 3.0 & 3.5 combined with the lack of WOC (and then later add Hazbro) to recognize their challengers, (primarily but not exclusively Piazo PFF), WOC/Haz has been effective getting their butts kicked.
Starting with a 4e attempted to make D&D more like Magic the Gathering, to delayed releases of 5e core, continual regurgitation of old "core rules" (1e & 2e) and 3.5 thru 4e core releases without NEW supporting product line to generate revenue. Choosing reliance on "re-branding" old 2e to support 3.5 & 4e didn't help them maintain dominance.

The debacle withdrawal of support of Dragon / Dungeon magazines.
The removal of support of Living Greyhawk, the first world wide campaign system, etc.... All created a cascade of events leading to a downturn in their market share. And while they were reporting increased sales compared to where TSR was with 1e and 2e, those numbers didn't reflect to very stark facts. One> The public view had changed, Two> before OGL there was no market competition Three> The gaming industry at the turn of the century was on a upturn compared to 1980-1990 So all fronts were making money.

But if you look at what was produced, in the WOC / Haz window, and compare it to other publications, WOC went from sole provider of 3.0 to 3.5 to be challenged by bit support by Paizo (and others) in 2002. Paizo on the other hand has gone from just supporting Dragon & Dungeon Magazines in 2002 to, 3.5 support, to creating pathfinder, to now Starfinder in 2017. WOC in that amount of time didn't get exclusive revenue for the support supplements for most of 3.5. And 4e was a near failure as judged by most of their core fanbase.
In short WOC went from having almost exclusive provider of tabletop Role play to having several viable companies to challenge them in the market. Odd thing is they could have avoided it all.. but that's another tale......
WOC had no choice but to try and bring back those they were losing to other markets with the release of 5e by hiring former writers back (Ed Greenwood for one) and bring back another loved campaign setting, Forgotten Realms, in the hopes that they could lure those "old silvere-haird Grunard Dragons"(and their respective "spawn" back from the razor coast to live the tales their elders once told..

BUT even that was a VERY rocky release, 5e ("Next" as it was sometimes labeled) taking twice as long as forecasted to complete. And WOC still supporting a haphazard business model of still dangling regurgitations on the memories of old... by transplanting blatant Greyhawk adventures recovered and shoe-horned into a setting they were not originally designed for... hummmm...

All the While Piazo with PFF and Kobold Press with Midgard are blazing out in new places to adventure. So, it's more likely the data represented is a "feel good" from WOC/HAzbo combined with date migration from the generation of having to have the newest shiney at the time....

Lately to add .. WOC's waning presence in trade venues of various conventions. For just one example, there were far more PFF games to be played than all other D&D editions combined at last years 50 Gencon , and this is one of the worlds largest table top gaming conventions, and WOC presence was sparse at best.... that conveys to me based on Gencon Model, that PFF is the most popular system currently...

Don't get me wrong.. I'm a diehard Greyhawker, but have been watching the industry since the white box. That has allowed me the good fortune of working with many people that are now progressed from the early days of the gaming industry to be leads in other companies now.... we play, converse, and break bread at many venues across the country chatting about this very thing. And over all, the interest has certainly increased from the 1980 "devil-worship" labeling we "Old Dragons" endured in the day, so that's good for all, no matter what company or campaign setting you support.
But WOC/ Haz is not as assured as suggested.

Originally Posted by daplunk

Agree with that for sure. LWD have done themselves no favours in current years and need to put a foot forward to restore confidence. Even if the foot doesn't have a shoe on.

Sadly, this is true... just one such instance was too much focus has been placed around a "poll" that was terribly weighted in favor of what a "player wanted to see" than in what the DM needed to provide a good platform to game from. (IMO)

Anyway Us "Ancient Dragons" need to provide the guidance and direction to great gaming into the next generation because there is no greater form of entertainment than the imagination. And if they get too far out a line, as the old saying goes....
"To a dragon, your are crunchy and good with ketchup".. hehe

DLG

[Asandir]

Wow. Fascinating post. And yes, I am also one of those "old gits" that has been gaming since the mid 70's. Not quite to half price movie tickets, though I am the old man of my gaming group.

[daplunk]

Excellent read.

Do you think that conventions are a true reflection of the Industy as a whole anymore?

Persoanlly I don't see people flocking to conventions. Granted I'm in Australia so very different scene down here but it would seem to me that the demographic has shifted significantly. Just like the computer game industry where the old school players play pc, the new blood play consoles but the largest group of players is now the mobile gamers.

I don't think conventions are a true reflection of the industry anymore. The world has chaged and the idea of having to go to a convention to get a game is no longer necessary or even something a vast number of players would consider.

[Valyar]

Especially when the VTT products like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 allows us to play without leaving the comfort of our home while keeping the same level of engagement with the community via forums.

Great post, Dark Lord Galen!

[kbs666]

I think most people still play face to face. Those VTT numbers are far too small to sustain even one company much less the entire industry. Further GenCon and the other major cons, Essen, the various PAX, have all seen significant attendance growth in the last few years. From what I know of the industry physical GM items like minis and maps still sell well which is more evidence most people still play in person.

[daplunk]

Originally Posted by kbs666

I think most people still play face to face.

Agree completely. They are just an indicator upon which you need to look at other external factors in order to trust the data. Some things I've considered.

Activity of social media groups.
What % of shelf space is given to each product in brick and mortar stores?
What % of sales by product are distributors seeing?
Popularity of live streams.

Everything I have seen in these other areas of data indicate the information provided by the VTT's is in the realm of correct.