(M&M 3e) Defenses Power Level Cap?

[jbearwillis]

Well if you do feel that it needs to be changed or at least for a possible word change and if you would like to suggest that change, then you can use the link below to do so and see what comes of it.

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=48331

And don't worry about coming off as hostile, I didn't get that from you. Frustrated maybe, but not hostile. LOL

[Duggan]

Originally Posted by Omphaloskeptic

At PL10, a 14 Toughness does not have a trade-off unless you have more than 6 Dodge or Parry.

Maybe it could alert the user just before a trade-off is getting close, but a) Hero Lab just flags any stat over PL, regardless how much 'room' is left before PLx2, and b) Hero Lab handles trade-offs automatically and generates a validation report anyway! There's no need for the trade-off alert at all.

To say "This trait is too high for the current power level without a tradeoff" would imply that one is past the limit. That would be fine, but the limit is PLx2. I get the trade-off warning at PL+1.

It should be fixed.

I think we may just disagree with terminology here. Trade-offs are not intended to indicate a problem. They're meant to indicate that, because you have one value which is greater than the PL, the corresponding item has a lower upper limit. So, the moment you have 12 Toughness on a PL 10 character, you are doing at +2 Toughness tradeoff whether or not you ever buy up your defenses. It got added back in 2E because people got confused when a tradeoff forced such a lower upper value. Now, it confuses people who think it's an error instead of a helpful note.

Incidentally, there are a few corner cases where trade-offs do cause an issue within the system, but mainly in 2E (they've done bug fixes on the 3E material). Namely, there are calculated values, AtkDiffDC and AtkDiffAtk that are only updated correctly in the case of a Tradeoff. Scripts which rely on them may result in bad validations.

[Omphaloskeptic]

Originally Posted by Duggan

I think we may just disagree with terminology here. Trade-offs are not intended to indicate a problem. They're meant to indicate that, because you have one value which is greater than the PL, the corresponding item has a lower upper limit. So, the moment you have 12 Toughness on a PL 10 character, you are doing at +2 Toughness tradeoff whether or not you ever buy up your defenses. It got added back in 2E because people got confused when a tradeoff forced such a lower upper value. Now, it confuses people who think it's an error instead of a helpful note.

Incidentally, there are a few corner cases where trade-offs do cause an issue within the system, but mainly in 2E (they've done bug fixes on the 3E material). Namely, there are calculated values, AtkDiffDC and AtkDiffAtk that are only updated correctly in the case of a Tradeoff. Scripts which rely on them may result in bad validations.

The message you get on rollover is unambiguous and incorrect. "This trait is too high for the current power level" is simply not true until an effect or defense is at PLx2.

So fine: have the trade-off arrow show up, but have it say "This trait's level may affect [corresponding trait]'s maximum level." Or don't have it at all. I think it would be less cruel to be a bit ambiguous to new players than actively misleading.

[mirtos]

I'm not new to HeroLab, but I am new to M&M. I dont see the rollover on mine. I've tried multiple ways to get it. Is there a setting? I do the the up and down arrows you all talk about, but i dont see any rollover.

FWIW, I'm using the mac version, latest version.

[Omphaloskeptic]

Originally Posted by mirtos

I'm not new to HeroLab, but I am new to M&M. I dont see the rollover on mine. I've tried multiple ways to get it. Is there a setting? I do the the up and down arrows you all talk about, but i dont see any rollover.

FWIW, I'm using the mac version, latest version.

On the Abilities tab under Defenses -- when you increase, say, Fortitude to 11 or higher (assuming you are making a PC at PL 10) a purple up-down arrow appears to the right of the grey, parenthetical abbreviation of the root stat. When you 'mouse-over' or 'rollover' that purple arrow and hover, a popup error message appears.

[mirtos]

On the mac version (again, at least for me), I see the purple up/down, but I dont have the rollover/mouse over effect.

[Lantalia]

Originally Posted by Omphaloskeptic

On the Abilities tab under Defenses -- when you increase, say, Fortitude to 11 or higher (assuming you are making a PC at PL 10) a purple up-down arrow appears to the right of the grey, parenthetical abbreviation of the root stat. When you 'mouse-over' or 'rollover' that purple arrow and hover, a popup error message appears.

The popup is _NOT_ an error message and is correct. PL sets a soft cap for these traits, when you can only exceed that cap via a tradeoff, the message is that you are doing so.