Knowledge skills

[SeeleyOne]

A recent menu array thread got me thinking about how best to handle the Knowledge skills. Truth be told, it is annoying to have to type in the name each time you want one. Added to that, some players cannot spell correctly. :/

If it were possible -- OK, it definitely is possible, but the real question is if it would ever be scripted -- I think that perhaps the best way to handle Knowledge skills is much the same way as they are handled in Pathfinder. That is, to say, they are static skills that are marked with a "Knowledge" tag, which makes them searchable by things like the Scholar edge.

Yeah, an array could work, but a static skill has the following benefits:
1) it is easy to preclude from specific settings
2) it is easier to directly modify by edges, races, etc
3) it is easier to determine if it meets requirements
4) it is easier than scrolling down a menu (which can get REALLY long in some games)
5) it is easier than typing (or mistyping, as the case may be) in the correct term
6) it is easier to recall what the correct term is supposed to be, as it can have its own description

A generic fill-in-the-blank should be used for those that insist in typing it out, for adding new knowledges outside of the editor, and for backwards compatibility with other settings and mods that still use the "old" way. This of course would also have the "Knowledge" tag.

[CapedCrusader]

Unfortunately, that would go against the Savage Worlds design. The game system itself calls for it to be open-ended. We shouldn't be setting Hero Lab up to work so differently from the game system. Static Knowledge Skills aren't the way Savage Worlds is set up. Also, we'd have to re-write a lot of the existing material, as so much is written to handle the special nature of Knowledge Skills. It would be easier to program and use if they were a static list, but that's not the way the game system is designed. Also, if we left an open-ended choice available, you'd still have to do everything you do now, just with the added work of dealing with it both ways. I don't think it's feasible.

[SeeleyOne]

I guess you are right that the core concept wants it to be open. It is that I have only really seen very specific knowledge skills being used. Most settings tend to either use the same knowledge skills, or add in a few specific new options.

[CapedCrusader]

The other issue is that Pathfinder only operates on one "Setting". Savage Worlds has to accommodate anything anybody thinks up.

[SeeleyOne]

People can make up different settings for Pathfinder if they want to. Many people just use Golarion, but there are many other settings. Midgard is one that is also available in Hero Lab.

Or maybe you mean genre. There are some different genres for Pathfinder but none of them have made it to Pathfinder yet. There are a handful of sci-fi supplements. In August the Technology book will come out, and that will open it up for some official sci-fi stuff.

Either way I am not convinced that is a relevant position. As I said before, regardless of setting I tend to see mostly the same Knowledge skills. I am not convinced that it is a good enough rationale to not be able to have "real" Knowledge skills, as opposed to having to fill them out every single time. It is kind of a minor deterrent to not have Knowledge skills. They get picked on for being able to be diverse.

[zarlor]

I might suggest that it may be true in your experience that Knowledge skills are limited, but that may also be said of things like Powers in how most folks use/trap them. I can tell you that in the various campaigns I've been in and run we've got players that get quite creative and Knowledge is well used as a way to get those ideas into their characters. Just like we also tend to use the renaming mechanic on Powers to rename them appropriately for our characters trappings on them as well. It's one of the massive strengths, IMHO, of Savage Worlds. I'm with CC on this one that I don't think it's a good idea to try and force limited tables for Knowledge skills. Now if you could have a flexible table that allowed selections or the ability to leave it blank to type your own in then I don't really have any issue with that.

[jbearwillis]

I sure it's not doable now, But the skills could of been set up in a similar fashion as Shadowrun were you could pick Knowledge skills, and also regular skills as specialties, if you wanted that able to do so with a check box to activate it. In that manner you could set the optional rule up that's in the main savage world rule book. Then you could add specialties as needed. If you just wanted to use the straight rules you could, but if you wanted to branch out you could with the specialty rule. Like savage worlds does allow you to break Shoot down to Pistols, Rifles etc., but the way it's set up you can't because if you make a new shoot it won't work. But if you had a specialty option you could. I wish there was a way to set it up like that. Adding specialties in the editor in shadowrun is very easy.

[CapedCrusader]

The structure of the two game system is too different for Skill Specialties to work. Yes, Savage Worlds could be set up that way as well, but at this point it would take such a major re-write you'd basically have to start all over because all the code is based on how it's set up now. The basic idea of Savage Worlds is simplicity. Unfortunately, Skill Specialties is the exact opposite. It would take a complete structural re-write.

[SeeleyOne]

I do have a fix for this for those that want to implement it in their house rules.

Each new knowledge skill must start with a tag id of skKn and only knowledge skills should have it. Existing edges would need to be fixed so that they can check for the specified skill (whether it be a domain of the generic Knowledge skill or a specific instance). There are not all that many edges that reference it so this is not as daunting a task as one might think.

Anyway, the one fix that needs to be made is the Scholar edge, which specifically does need to know to look for both types. My assumption is that there will be specified knowledges as well as a generic "fill in the blank" (the normal knowledge skill).

For Scholar, the first fix needs to be in the Menu #1 and #2 Tag expressions. Change it to this:

thingid.skKn? & fieldval:trtFinal >= 4

The change is that it looks for a wild card, which is why above all knowledge skills need to be the only skills that start with skKn. I suppose that if someone came up with a Kneading skill it would collide with this, but I seriously doubt that such a skill would be used.

Pre-Reqs will have a small change. Change the line that says foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKnow" to

foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKn?"

The second Eval script (the Render one) will need a code such as this:

      ~determine the text to append to the name
      var choices as string

      if (field[usrChosen1].ischosen <> 0) then
        if (field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[domDomain].text <> 0) then
          choices = field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[domDomain].text
        else
          choices = field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[shortname].text
        endif
      else
        choices = "-Choose-"
        endif

      if (field[usrChosen2].ischosen <> 0) then
        if (field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[domDomain].text <> 0) then
          choices &= ", " & field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[domDomain].text
        else
          choices &= ", " & field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[shortname].text
        endif
      else
        choices = "-Choose-"
        endif

      ~add the selection to both the livename and shortname (if present) fields
      field[livename].text = field[thingname].text & ": " & choices
      if (tagis[component.shortname] <> 0) then
        field[shortname].text &= " (" & choices & ")"
        endif

I am sure that I am not the only one that would rather just select a knowledge skill and not fill it in. My players will be happier, too. I like options, and this one is a fairly easy fix.

[CapedCrusader]

Watch out, there are side effects for messing with the Knowledge Skill. There are a lot of places in the code (both base code and the various Setting files) that make allowances for Knowledge Skills that will not work with this structure.