A word to the wise for the complainers

[Chemlak]

*pictures Hero Lab/Realm Works rule bundles*

*looks at his bank balance*

*winces and cries with joy*

[wildfire142]

Am also hopping for fluff and rules adorns for some of the major game systems, namely Pathfinder and Shadowrun either 4th or the new 5th ed rules. (Both will have Hero Lab support so fingers crossed).

[enrious]

Given the nature of SRD games (not just D20/Pathfinder, but also games like M&M, D20Modern and so on - take a look at the SRD sites you can reach from d20pfsrd.com, for example), I'd be surprised if the rules for popular OGL games were more than a nominal fee.

After all, how many people could and would be willing to contribute a couple of hours to entering in game mechanics for a shared Pathfinder rules realm? I'm guessing it could get knocked out pretty quickly. What would FATE take, like an hour?

On the other hand, there's opportunity for LW to charge for closed games (with appropriate agreements with the copyright holders) or for less-popular open source games.

Honestly, the fluff aspect is to me the big sell. Stepping into the realm (pun intended) of what is likely a flight of fantasy, imagine if a company like WotC agreed to have system-neutral setting info for FR put in? Or Inner Seas from Pathfinder? Or let's go with something more likely - those of you using Midgard from Kobold Press, how great would it be to have the content entered in...and maybe down the road you buy a package deal that gives you the pdf of new content + plus the appropriate info in RW + plus the Hero Lab data package. I think if a publisher has the resources (staff or money to pay a freelancer), they'd love for you to entertain the idea.

Heck, if it was just a matter of a campaign management tool, then Realm Works is just another program. If the cloud potential is realized, then it becomes a revolution.

[Aldaron]

I wish there was a "Like" button for the OP.
I dunno if the complainers simply didn't run games back in the 80s and 90s, or if they've just forgotten how bloody complex, time-consuming and generally hard it was to keep track of a campaign.
We've already got HL to keep track of NPCs - and to create NPCs (I dunno about you, but taking NPC creation from 1 - 2 hours each to about 10 - 15 minutes for really high-level, complex characters and about 30 seconds for your average mook is already an enormous saving for me).

When RW comes out, it will be a massive boon. Seriously. And yes, we're all waiting and eager. I've been dying to have it for both my Carrion Crown and Rise of the Runelords APs I'm running, and I'd love to have it before I start Wrath of the Righteous soon...but if I don't?

Well, guess what. It's not the end of the world. RW is a "nice-to-have". In fact, it's a "bloody-nice-to-have-and-I'd-consider-giving-my-firstborn-up-for-it". But I would much rather wait a few more months for an application (that was started via Kickstarter, IIRC) that works properly when I get it than have it arrive yesterday and full of bugs.

I tell my students about the "Software Development Triad". Imagine a triangle, at each corner you have: "Fast", "Good", and "Cheap".

Pick any two. You can have it fast, and good - but it will cost. You can have it good, and cheap - but it will take time. Or you can have it fast, and cheap - but it will suck.

I would much prefer that LWD go for option #2 (which it appears they are doing) than for option #3 (which some people seem to be screaming for).

And just let me send a quick "Thank you" to the LWD guys who regularly come here, while under no obligation to do so, to explain and help and guide. You guys are an example to all software developers, and another reason why I'm more than happy to pay as much as necessary for the top-notch stuff you create.

[freeAgent]

Originally Posted by Aldaron

I tell my students about the "Software Development Triad". Imagine a triangle, at each corner you have: "Fast", "Good", and "Cheap".

Pick any two. You can have it fast, and good - but it will cost. You can have it good, and cheap - but it will take time. Or you can have it fast, and cheap - but it will suck.

I would much prefer that LWD go for option #2 (which it appears they are doing) than for option #3 (which some people seem to be screaming for).

And just let me send a quick "Thank you" to the LWD guys who regularly come here, while under no obligation to do so, to explain and help and guide. You guys are an example to all software developers, and another reason why I'm more than happy to pay as much as necessary for the top-notch stuff you create.

I prefer to call it the Iron Triangle of Project Management because it sounds cooler I totally agree on the necessity of RW being a complete and high-quality product by the time it is released. Releasing something half-baked and/or buggy as hell is not in LWD's long-term interest, or the community's for that matter. I am happy to wait for the finished product, though part of the reason for that is that I'm not running anything and am currently too busy to consider doing so

[lfseeney]

I tried to make sure all the hints and help below is stated correctly, but I human and mess up from time to time.


I would say watch the Videos, see a bit of the things RW will be expecting you to input.

If you have lots on paper, go ahead and start typing in a document.

When you get RW, you can paste the block over, then with a keystroke you can snip that out into it's own data point, then do it again and again. Much faster than cut and pasting.

If your building a whole new world, I would start making a document of:
People, Places, Items, Lore, and things like that.


Again, the input of data along with learning a new software program can daunting.

I found when starting from scratch that I started looping, stopping to add a place before I finished the entry i was on because they were connected, then that place needed something and so on.

The great thing about RW is you do not need to do that, you can detail an entry all you want, when you add in things that cross later, RW will grab them for you. Also it asks just to be sure.

But I found when moving over old stuff my brain like to have the major places, people and such in the system, so I made a quick list of ll those then added them with no detail yet just the frame work to fill in later.

It is just your preference.

RW will become more useful the more you get entered into it, I think prepping your data some before you start could make it go smother.

The more already in a document on the computer the better, but even those could be prepped some I think.

Got Rumors spread with each location and maybe some NPCs, Copy them all to one doc
to be ready to enter them in to RW. Have the NPC Name and the Location if needed in the info.

These will slide in quickly then when the NPC and or Location is added they link.

The connection is done, but you can give a Rumor to Suzzy The Bard before RW knows who he is. For when you add him and his name was on the rumors they connect.

Others here can give a better idea of some of the prep that may speed input, I am sure.

Maybe can start a new topic on how to prep existing data to flow in to RW smoother.

Good Luck All,

Lee

[Illydth]

The issue for many (and it's been stated several times in this thread and other places) is that LDW did a terrible job advertising their Kickstarter. Many of us have been using LDW's products for YEARS and looking for a product like this for longer...and yet had NO idea this was even happening.

The amount of money they left on the table with their kickstarter has got to be immense. And I think this is the thing that's frustrating a significant number of the folks out there who missed the kickstarter: Had we known, we'd have bought in also.

The stupid thing about it is A LOT of us knew about the beta test and put in beta apps, and many of us who did, DID NOT know about the Kickstarter. That boggles the mind...how does communication go so badly that you can know a product needs beta tested but NOT know that a kickstarter has been opened for it? This was a HUGE miss on LDW's part, and feeds into the complaints and issues they're getting now.

This is compounded by the long release times. Let me be clear, as a software beta tester for a very significant number of games to date and an open source developer myself, I get missing deadlines...God do I.

Let me see if I can do justice to the "complainers" side of the argument for a second:

The kickstarter ran for a very short period of time, missed a large segment of those people who would otherwise have signed up for the kickstarter due to a lack of communication/advertising/whatever, and is now 10 months gone with no release of the software.

Surely the kickstarter could have been kept open for several more MONTHS than it was. Surely there could have been better communication to glean every dollar that *wanted* to be spent on this product and early access to it. Surely opening pre-access to a piece of beta software to backers is not a limited experience. Surely there's little to no reason not to re-open "pay for pre-release access"?

One of the arguments in the thread above was that you can only handle a certain number of complaints at a time as a development shop and opening the doors to more people causes more headache. This is absolutely true, but LDW had gone past that point in the development cycle. The moment they opened the product to Kickstarter backers they opened the flood gates. What happened if instead of 650 backers there'd been 1000? 2000? 10000? Would they have limited access to half the people who paid for it because they couldn't handle the influx? The argument that more people would make LDW's life more difficult fails because they didn't limit the number of backers who could get into early access.

I think the "shut up and take my money" complaint you're all hearing is that due to poor communication (I can't call it anything but) many of us missed the ability for early access. When it was only a few months away, this wasn't a big deal. By the 4th reported missed deadline and 10 months past initial release date, however, many of us are looking at this going, "why not re-open 'early access' and take pre-orders now."

They didn't set a limit on the number of people who could obtain early access 10 months ago, why not allow as many as want to pay in for access now? What changed between 10 months ago and now?

The mind boggling thing, and the thing I think most of the complaints are occurring because of, is that there are a significant number of us that want to pay a company who's in business to make money for access to something we all know very well doesn't work as it could right now. We want to devote some of our free time to reporting bugs, dealing with broken software, debugging problems and offering our time to help fix a product we believe in.

It was not our poor decision making that kept us from being able to do so...it was a lack of communication on LDW's part to properly inform their customer base that a kickstarter was happening. Further it's not our lack of interest or our lack of money that's keeping us from being able to do so now...just (by all accounts) a company's lack of interest in taking that money.

Most of us simply don't understand why we can't throw our money and time at a pre-released alpha/beta piece of software to make it better...not because we decided against backing the software and now regret that decision, but simply because we weren't as well informed (or lucky to have stumbled across it) as others in the community.

The OP has valid points about complaints, complainers and the hew and cry of "OMG you missed a deadline!", I don't mean to detract from that...I've posted many a comment to the same on other forums to other communities about the same things.

But on the other side, when posting something like this, please understand that many people's lack of access and "complaints" right now are as much the fault of LDW's lack of communication as their own failure to join a kickstarter. There's a difference between "I didn't give you my money when I should" and "I never had the opportunity to give you my money."

[Zinquox]

Ok Illydth, first their Kickstarter obviously made them enough to get this rolling. Second you say that it was only up for a limited time, too limited in your opinion, but then you go ahead and say that they did nothing to limit the amount of people. You've already answered your own argument. How well they advertised the kickstarter, and the amount of time it was up for, was there way of limiting.

Second, your comment that LWD is "a company who's in business to make money," I have a feeling is more wrong then you can imagine. I highly doubt the people who started LWD said, "I know lets make money!" It was probably more something along the lines of, "Hey we could develop this product, and do an awesome job at it, we should do this!" Yes they make money off their product, but as this is something they do full time, they need to make some money off it, to you know, pay bills and other things.

Third, yes I missed the kickstarter, and sure I would love to be able to buy in to help make this happen, but with so many people using it and reporting bugs, there really are only so many hours in a day, and too many cooks really can spoil the soup. I will wait. Is the world going to end because I had to wait a little longer? No? Good, then wait I shall.

[Ladyofdragons]

So, a question for those who missed the kickstarter. What method of advertising the kickstarter would you definitely have seen? I know the kickstarter was posted on the wolflair home page, and the wolflair forums, and ENWorld. Just wondering, this info may be useful to the lonewolf folks in the future.

[woobyluv]

Well, I found out about it from an ad I saw on www.d20pfsrd.com and that was well after the kickstarter had concluded. Funny thing is, I had Herolab at that time, but never knew about Realm Works. I don't go actively searching for things like this until I actually need something. It was just happenstance that I saw it on www.d20pfsrd.com because I normally ignore ads... I really don't like being advertised to on a continual basis, which is why I don't watch Network TV anymore, but I digress...