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Merion
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Old November 12th, 2018, 02:19 AM
I know the usual reactions when someone mentions Realm Works and VTT in the same breath, so before you get out your pitchforks and torches:



Okay? We're good? Great, now hear me out!
I'm not saying LWD should throw its already spread out resources into trying to convert RW into a VTT which was never intended. But there are several improvements that would make the tool better imho and incrementally lead RW being a quasi-VTT. So let me list some features I'd love to see:
  • Dice roller - been on the backlog for a while I think
  • Being able to place icons for my PCs on the map
  • Being able to move these around as a GM
  • Being able to likewise place (and move) enemies and neutral NPCs
    Right now, I use the player view to show dungeon and other maps (love the fog of world!), NPC, monster and atmospheric pics. But when it comes down to battle, I print out the battle maps and we fidget around with minis. Want to do this on the big screen, too!
  • Importing the statblock of PCs from HLO
  • As long as I'm online this could be done on the fly
  • Speaking of on the fly, this then could let me see the current HP and conditions of each character
  • Next logical step would be to change and apply conditions (and XP) as a DM
  • Control of the tactical console (I know, its not even in HLO yet) from within Realm Works
  • and finally Live Sharing of Player View over the Internet

There are probably more, but those came to me mind right now.
I think most of these features would benefit the tool, some are likely easier to implement than others, but if you do implement even some of these - mostly quality of life - features you'll probably end up with something close to a VTT with a heavyweight campaign management system behind it.
For reference: I use HLO as player and RW as a DM and am a great fan of both. But I see a) room for improvement and b) market pressure from the VTTs.

Having said that, you can now pick up your pitchforks and torches again and roast away
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EightBitz
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Old November 12th, 2018, 03:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
I know the usual reactions when someone mentions Realm Works and VTT in the same breath, so before you get out your pitchforks and torches:

Okay? We're good? Great, now hear me out!
OK, I'm listening ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
I'm not saying LWD should throw its already spread out resources into trying to convert RW into a VTT which was never intended.
OK. That's cool. Still listening ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
But there are several improvements that would make the tool better imho and incrementally lead RW being a quasi-VTT.
But ... you JUST SAID ... no, wait, never mind. Keeping an open mind. Go on ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
So let me list some features I'd love to see:
  • Dice roller - been on the backlog for a while I think
  • Being able to place icons for my PCs on the map
  • Being able to move these around as a GM
  • Being able to likewise place (and move) enemies and neutral NPCs
    Right now, I use the player view to show dungeon and other maps (love the fog of world!), NPC, monster and atmospheric pics. But when it comes down to battle, I print out the battle maps and we fidget around with minis. Want to do this on the big screen, too!
  • Importing the statblock of PCs from HLO
  • As long as I'm online this could be done on the fly
  • Speaking of on the fly, this then could let me see the current HP and conditions of each character
  • Next logical step would be to change and apply conditions (and XP) as a DM
  • Control of the tactical console (I know, its not even in HLO yet) from within Realm Works
  • and finally Live Sharing of Player View over the Internet
But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
There are probably more, but those came to me mind right now.
I think most of these features would benefit the tool, some are likely easier to implement than others, but if you do implement even some of these - mostly quality of life - features you'll probably end up with something close to a VTT with a heavyweight campaign management system behind it.
For reference: I use HLO as player and RW as a DM and am a great fan of both. But I see a) room for improvement and b) market pressure from the VTTs.

Having said that, you can now pick up your pitchforks and torches again and roast away
*Picks them up and lights torches.*

GET 'IM, BOYS!
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Merion
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Old November 12th, 2018, 03:34 AM
Lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz View Post
But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.
Alright, let me try to clarify: I do not want them to set another big goal like "Let's make RW a VTT!" and pour everything into that. I don't want another content market...

But they seem to be working on bug fixes and feature improvements for RW again - or at least they are communicating them again. So why not put some feature on that list that are improvements right away and also prepare for a future where a more VTT-like behavior is wished or a comercial necessity. Also I just see great possibilities and synergies now that the HL character information is online - just as our realm are.
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EightBitz
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Old November 12th, 2018, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
Lol!



Alright, let me try to clarify: I do not want them to set another big goal like "Let's make RW a VTT!" and pour everything into that. I don't want another content market...

But they seem to be working on bug fixes and feature improvements for RW again - or at least they are communicating them again. So why not put some feature on that list that are improvements right away and also prepare for a future where a more VTT-like behavior is wished or a comercial necessity. Also I just see great possibilities and synergies now that the HL character information is online - just as our realm are.
1. Because, as you said, it would stress the team.
2. That's not what the software was designed to do. It's not designed for RT play. I don't know if that's an easy change. It might require a ground-up redesign. It all depends on how the software is engineered.
3. It runs the risk of bloating the software. When you take something that's designed to do X and not Y, then you try to make it do Y after the fact, you're likely looking at a lot of patchwork code. It risks bogging down the software.

I would rather see a separate VTT project with integration options. Then you can have a suite of products. A trifecta. Character management with Hero Lab, campaign management with RW, and VTT with ... ummm ... Game Knight! (No? Too much? How about ... ummm ... Cat Herding? Too on the nose, perhaps. Orc Quest Rations? Hey ... put down that pitchfork!)
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kbs666
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Old November 12th, 2018, 04:52 AM
I just posted a great long list of things that would keep the devs busy for a couple of years, probably, and now you want them to make RW into a VTT. I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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Merion
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Old November 12th, 2018, 05:20 AM
Okay, I confess, I'm just sick of printing out battle maps when I already got it on the big tv screen (and unfortunately I don't have the space to create something like daplunk did).


Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz View Post
2. That's not what the software was designed to do. It's not designed for RT play. I don't know if that's an easy change. It might require a ground-up redesign. It all depends on how the software is engineered.
3. It runs the risk of bloating the software. When you take something that's designed to do X and not Y, then you try to make it do Y after the fact, you're likely looking at a lot of patchwork code. It risks bogging down the software.
Of course! I have no clue about the technical ramifactions of this. The Player View might be an encapsulated module and adding more features like character portraits as a layer on shown maps might be easy or it's closly entangled with the rest of the code and all this is a huge undertaking or risk.
We can only speculate on that part without LWD chiming in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz View Post
I would rather see a separate VTT project with integration options. Then you can have a suite of products. A trifecta. Character management with Hero Lab, campaign management with RW, and VTT with ... ummm ... Game Knight! (No? Too much? How about ... ummm ... Cat Herding? Too on the nose, perhaps. Orc Quest Rations? Hey ... put down that pitchfork!)
Game (K)night, I like it!
Also like the idea itself. Detaching the Player View into its own product. You could have a lite version that is basically the Player View as we know it and a full featured standalone version that has a deep integration with Realm Works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
I just posted a great long list of things ...
True, and I'm thankful for that, but you intentionally left out the Player View, so I thought I'll throw some halfbaked ideas in the ring and see if discussion leads us anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.
Yeah, I would be more than happy with that. I'm just not sure if it would be less work for the team than incrementally building their own. Especially with the experience of the content market where waiting for the other end seemed like a big part of the problem.


I think that all this might be connected with the question if Realm Works Online is still planned (even if surely not anytime soon). A lot of this is probably easier done if RW is a live online tool instead of client-server-solution with only occational syncs.
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kbs666
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Old November 12th, 2018, 06:32 AM
Going from Player View to a full VTT seems to be quite a leap. Not that I'm opposed to incrementally moving in that direction if LWD gets some of the quality of life stuff on that list I posted done, Calendars!, done first.

I'd also like to suggest that perhaps Paizo is particularly bad at these sorts of things and doesn't care a whole lot about LWD. Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds might see the benefits of not reinventing the wheel of all the things LWD has already done in HL and RW and put in the effort to integrate their platform with LWD's packages.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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Dark Lord Galen
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Old November 12th, 2018, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBitz View Post
OK, I'm listening ...

OK. That's cool. Still listening ...

But ... you JUST SAID ... no, wait, never mind. Keeping an open mind. Go on ...

But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.

*Picks them up and lights torches.*

GET 'IM, BOYS!
Now that's funny

D&D> Pre 1e White Box Edition, 1e, 2e, 3.5 Currently, Set in the World of Greyhawk (The first, longest running and Best Campaign Setting)
Software>Extensive use of all forms of MS Products, Visual Studio 2012, DAZ 3d, AutoCAD, Adobe Products.
Gaming Specific>Campaign Cartographer, D20 Pro Alpha & BattleGrounds Beta Tester, World Builder, Dungeon Crafter, LWD Hero Lab, Realm Works, Inkwell Ideas Citybuilder & Dungeon Builder, Auto-Realm, Dundjinni
Contributing Writer for TSR, WOC, & Canonfire
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Dark Lord Galen
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Old November 12th, 2018, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
.......... I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.
This.....
And at one point they did in fact seem to lean in this direction with D20 Pro...

"Could" there be a supplement that "could" be an addon to do this in the future?? eh who can say.. but lets not pile on a "new feature" (insert excuse) to further sidetrak other promises now years overdue.

"Could" this new supplement be the home for a better and expanded view of the combat manager??? Real time updates?? Auto-updateable PORs? ETc.. Etc... Etc.... Sure... there are lots of things it "could be".

For myself, I'm still waiting on what it "should be"... as promised.
2cp

D&D> Pre 1e White Box Edition, 1e, 2e, 3.5 Currently, Set in the World of Greyhawk (The first, longest running and Best Campaign Setting)
Software>Extensive use of all forms of MS Products, Visual Studio 2012, DAZ 3d, AutoCAD, Adobe Products.
Gaming Specific>Campaign Cartographer, D20 Pro Alpha & BattleGrounds Beta Tester, World Builder, Dungeon Crafter, LWD Hero Lab, Realm Works, Inkwell Ideas Citybuilder & Dungeon Builder, Auto-Realm, Dundjinni
Contributing Writer for TSR, WOC, & Canonfire
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Dark Lord Galen
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Old November 12th, 2018, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merion View Post
...............

Game (K)night, I like it!
Also like the idea itself. Detaching the Player View into its own product. You could have a lite version that is basically the Player View as we know it and a full featured standalone version that has a deep integration with Realm Works.
.........
So a repackage of yet another promise we sold our players on years ago... "the Player's Edition" that has since died on the vine nearly as fast as it was sold...
Like others have mentioned to varying degree... LWD resources is haphazard at best. The program(s) "could be" ...would be... far better if we can get out of the Labrea Tarpit known as the Content Market, and provide the other tools essential to campaign management from both the DM and Player sides...

CALENDARS
PC Journals that actually integrate with the aforementioned calendars
Customizable tokens for maps
Reveals that don't force you to display the file names..
The list goes on and on..

and I am preaching to the choir since we all at one point or another have voiced all of these....

Right now Realm Works is an over glorified electronic file cabinet loosely crossed with a wiki page.

Time for the T-Rex to either emerge from the pit or sink into obscurity.

And for reasoning I can't even fathom let alone put to words, I continue to "hope" the potential of the carnivore still becomes the meat in comparison to the potatoes.....

D&D> Pre 1e White Box Edition, 1e, 2e, 3.5 Currently, Set in the World of Greyhawk (The first, longest running and Best Campaign Setting)
Software>Extensive use of all forms of MS Products, Visual Studio 2012, DAZ 3d, AutoCAD, Adobe Products.
Gaming Specific>Campaign Cartographer, D20 Pro Alpha & BattleGrounds Beta Tester, World Builder, Dungeon Crafter, LWD Hero Lab, Realm Works, Inkwell Ideas Citybuilder & Dungeon Builder, Auto-Realm, Dundjinni
Contributing Writer for TSR, WOC, & Canonfire
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