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idiosync at ncplus.net
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Old August 29th, 2003, 01:14 PM
The item card Tonfa says that you can have six in a deck. Cardvault says
you can have only three.






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  #1 Reply With Quote
hunter.rose at att.net
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Old August 31st, 2003, 08:21 PM
--- In cardvault@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fetting <idiosync@n...> wrote:
> The item card Tonfa says that you can have six in a deck. Cardvault
> says you can have only three.

And yes, I have more oddities to add to this.

When I added Hida Yasamura to my New Akasha deck, I got a "Revolt"
deck validation error, saying he would only join a different faction.
This is untrue. In the real world, he'll join anyone, he's just two
less gold for Unicorn.

Also, Naga Shugenja, while not unique, gives me a Uniqueness deck
validation error.

By the way Rob, have you gotten any of my e-mails? I sent some more
data to support@wolflair.com. And feel free to tell me when to shut
up.



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kuni_tetsu at yahoo.com
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 12:59 PM
--- Jon Fetting <idiosync@ncplus.net> wrote:
> The item card Tonfa says that you can have six in a deck. Cardvault says
> you can have only three.

It would be a big help if you would identify any and all versions of this card
(what set, card number, etc). This makes it much easier to track down the
errors.

This is one that I think both Rob and I missed.


=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

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  #3 Reply With Quote
rob
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 10:34 PM
Duly noted. Thanks for the report!

-Rob

At 02:13 PM 8/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>The item card Tonfa says that you can have six in a deck. Cardvault says
>you can have only three.


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Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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rob is offline   #4 Reply With Quote
rob
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 11:35 PM
At 02:04 AM 9/1/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>And yes, I have more oddities to add to this.
>
>When I added Hida Yasamura to my New Akasha deck, I got a "Revolt"
>deck validation error, saying he would only join a different faction.
>This is untrue. In the real world, he'll join anyone, he's just two
>less gold for Unicorn.

This should now be fixed.

>Also, Naga Shugenja, while not unique, gives me a Uniqueness deck
>validation error.

Actually, this only occurs if you add two DIFFERENT Naga Shugenja to the
deck. If you add one and then use the +/- buttons to set the quantity,
there are no difficulties (at least, that's how it's working in the nearly
ready V5.2 files).

This is a side effect of the card "Shashakar", which is considered to be
the same as a Naga Shugenja for uniqueness. The net result is that all Naga
Shugenja are treated the same as Shashakar and must not be mixed. I really
didn't want to spend a full day coding around this single bizarre
situation, so I left the limitation in that you can't mix multiple Naga
Shugenja cards. For the typical user with duplicate merging enabled, this
will never arise. And it doesn't need to arise for the user with duplicate
merging disabled, since it's just as easy to select a single Naga Shugenja
and adjust the quantity.

>By the way Rob, have you gotten any of my e-mails? I sent some more
>data to support@wolflair.com. And feel free to tell me when to shut
>up.

I've received a number of emails that identify various L5R issues from
different users. Yours are among them. I'm finishing up with all the bugs
first for the L5R V5.2 files. Things like reprints and promo cards will be
added in a subsequent release.

I'll never get upset at someone pointing out errors and omissions in the
files, so keep the reports coming. All I ask is patience in getting
everything updated, since I'm currently juggling way more than I can keep
up with. :-(

Thanks, Rob

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Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559) 658-6995
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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rob is offline   #5 Reply With Quote
jimmy_jinx at yahoo.com
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 11:47 PM
Why would Cardvault care if Shashakar is the NG? All it says is
"Experienced Naga Shugenja", and this should absolutely not matter
for deck construction purposes. All it matters for is that Shashakar
can overlay the NS when it enters play, nothing more. Why is this
rule here? I may be missing something, but I can't see it.


Abilio

--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> >Also, Naga Shugenja, while not unique, gives me a Uniqueness deck
> >validation error.
>
> Actually, this only occurs if you add two DIFFERENT Naga Shugenja
> to the
> deck. If you add one and then use the +/- buttons to set the
> quantity,
> there are no difficulties (at least, that's how it's working in the
> nearly
> ready V5.2 files).
>
> This is a side effect of the card "Shashakar", which is considered
> to be
> the same as a Naga Shugenja for uniqueness. The net result is that
> all Naga
> Shugenja are treated the same as Shashakar and must not be mixed. I
> really
> didn't want to spend a full day coding around this single bizarre
> situation, so I left the limitation in that you can't mix multiple
> Naga
> Shugenja cards. For the typical user with duplicate merging
> enabled, this
> will never arise. And it doesn't need to arise for the user with
> duplicate
> merging disabled, since it's just as easy to select a single Naga
> Shugenja
> and adjust the quantity.
>
>
> Thanks, Rob


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  #6 Reply With Quote
rob
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 01:22 AM
The Shashakar from Anvil of Despair says "This card is considered to be the
Naga Shugenja for uniqueness". Based on that text and my pitiful LACK of
knowledge of all things L5R, it sure sounded to me that Shashakar and the
Naga Shugenja must be treated as the same card for uniqueness purposes
during deck construction. That's what CV is currently doing.

If I'm messed up on this, please explain. Remember, I'm largely clueless
about L5R, although I'm doing my best to learn. Things you might consider
obvious as a veteran player will be anything BUT obvious to me, so please
forgive the ignorance. :-)

Thanks, Rob

At 12:45 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Why would Cardvault care if Shashakar is the NG? All it says is
>"Experienced Naga Shugenja", and this should absolutely not matter
>for deck construction purposes. All it matters for is that Shashakar
>can overlay the NS when it enters play, nothing more. Why is this
>rule here? I may be missing something, but I can't see it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559) 658-6995
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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rob is offline   #7 Reply With Quote
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 02:07 AM
OK, it's like this. At the time AoD was shipped (the third
expansion), the Experienced trait was still only applied to
personalities with the same name. For example, Akido Kage has a
normal and experienced version. The "generic" Naga personalities in
Imperial (Shugenja and Warlord) both were done before Naga became a
faction, so when it came time to experience them, they went through a
process of "individualization". Thus becoming Shashakar and Shahadet.
The problem was, thought, that having "experienced" in the trait box
wouldn't help, because there was no previous version of them.
Therefore, they used that clunky trait to link the two personalities.
A few expansions later, as the number of experienced personalities
with name changes increased (Kage lost the family name, Hisa gained
it, Yasamura married out-of-clan, etc), this text became too
cumbersome, and a much more streamlined "Experienced Akodo Kage"
appeared, and the "counts as X for uniqueness" was gradually changed
to be used only in one type of cards: Cards that represented the same
THING, but had a different type (like Hida Kisada becoming a retainer
holding. He sure can't be overlayed over the old personality, but
having only the "experienced" trait would allow it, BUT it also
didn't make sense to have 2 Kisadas in play, one retired old mas as
holding and one as feisty young behemoth)

I believe Shashakar got the new, simpler "Experienced Naga Shugenja"
in Jade Edition, where he was reprinted. Anyway, the bottom line is
that in his old card, that "counts as NS for uniqueness" means only
that he can be overlaid on it (putting him in play as an "evolution"
of the NS). The rule would only be limiting in deck construction if
BOTH cards were unique and had the same experienced level, because
only then would you be limited to just one per deck.

Was that understandable? I tend to ramble a bit.

Abilio

--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> The Shashakar from Anvil of Despair says "This card is considered
> to be the
> Naga Shugenja for uniqueness". Based on that text and my pitiful
> LACK of
> knowledge of all things L5R, it sure sounded to me that Shashakar
> and the
> Naga Shugenja must be treated as the same card for uniqueness
> purposes
> during deck construction. That's what CV is currently doing.
>
> If I'm messed up on this, please explain. Remember, I'm largely
> clueless
> about L5R, although I'm doing my best to learn. Things you might
> consider
> obvious as a veteran player will be anything BUT obvious to me, so
> please
> forgive the ignorance. :-)
>
> Thanks, Rob
>
> At 12:45 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Why would Cardvault care if Shashakar is the NG? All it says is
> >"Experienced Naga Shugenja", and this should absolutely not matter
> >for deck construction purposes. All it matters for is that
> Shashakar
> >can overlay the NS when it enters play, nothing more. Why is this
> >rule here? I may be missing something, but I can't see it.
>
>
>
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> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559)
> 658-6995
> Lone Wolf Development
> www.wolflair.com
>
>
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>
>


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  #8 Reply With Quote
rob
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Posts: 8,232

Old September 3rd, 2003, 01:41 PM
Let me see if I've got this straight. In the case of the Naga Shugenja and
Shashakar, the "equivalence" of the two cards can be ignored. However, in
the case of the Crab Clan Ancestral Sword and Ancestral Sword of the Crab
Clan, the equivalence of the two cards DOES need to be distinguished
because they are BOTH designated as "unique". Is that right?

Assuming I'm on track here, I don't understand how only ONE card being
unique makes the pair exempt from deck construction equivalence. I
understand the interpretation if BOTH cards are unique or NEITHER is
unique, but I'm confused about only ONE being unique.

Help?!?!

-Rob

At 03:05 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>OK, it's like this. At the time AoD was shipped (the third
>expansion), the Experienced trait was still only applied to
>personalities with the same name. For example, Akido Kage has a
>normal and experienced version. The "generic" Naga personalities in
>Imperial (Shugenja and Warlord) both were done before Naga became a
>faction, so when it came time to experience them, they went through a
>process of "individualization". Thus becoming Shashakar and Shahadet.
>The problem was, thought, that having "experienced" in the trait box
>wouldn't help, because there was no previous version of them.
>Therefore, they used that clunky trait to link the two personalities.
>A few expansions later, as the number of experienced personalities
>with name changes increased (Kage lost the family name, Hisa gained
>it, Yasamura married out-of-clan, etc), this text became too
>cumbersome, and a much more streamlined "Experienced Akodo Kage"
>appeared, and the "counts as X for uniqueness" was gradually changed
>to be used only in one type of cards: Cards that represented the same
>THING, but had a different type (like Hida Kisada becoming a retainer
>holding. He sure can't be overlayed over the old personality, but
>having only the "experienced" trait would allow it, BUT it also
>didn't make sense to have 2 Kisadas in play, one retired old mas as
>holding and one as feisty young behemoth)
>
>I believe Shashakar got the new, simpler "Experienced Naga Shugenja"
>in Jade Edition, where he was reprinted. Anyway, the bottom line is
>that in his old card, that "counts as NS for uniqueness" means only
>that he can be overlaid on it (putting him in play as an "evolution"
>of the NS). The rule would only be limiting in deck construction if
>BOTH cards were unique and had the same experienced level, because
>only then would you be limited to just one per deck.
>
>Was that understandable? I tend to ramble a bit.
>
>Abilio
>
>--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> > The Shashakar from Anvil of Despair says "This card is considered
> > to be the
> > Naga Shugenja for uniqueness". Based on that text and my pitiful
> > LACK of
> > knowledge of all things L5R, it sure sounded to me that Shashakar
> > and the
> > Naga Shugenja must be treated as the same card for uniqueness
> > purposes
> > during deck construction. That's what CV is currently doing.
> >
> > If I'm messed up on this, please explain. Remember, I'm largely
> > clueless
> > about L5R, although I'm doing my best to learn. Things you might
> > consider
> > obvious as a veteran player will be anything BUT obvious to me, so
> > please
> > forgive the ignorance. :-)
> >
> > Thanks, Rob
> >
> > At 12:45 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Why would Cardvault care if Shashakar is the NG? All it says is
> > >"Experienced Naga Shugenja", and this should absolutely not matter
> > >for deck construction purposes. All it matters for is that
> > Shashakar
> > >can overlay the NS when it enters play, nothing more. Why is this
> > >rule here? I may be missing something, but I can't see it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559) 658-6995
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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rob is offline   #9 Reply With Quote
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 03:32 PM
--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> Let me see if I've got this straight. In the case of the Naga
> Shugenja and
> Shashakar, the "equivalence" of the two cards can be ignored.
> However, in
> the case of the Crab Clan Ancestral Sword and Ancestral Sword of
> the Crab
> Clan, the equivalence of the two cards DOES need to be
> distinguished
> because they are BOTH designated as "unique". Is that right?

Kinda-sorta. The main point is that you have to know the experienced
rules.

The Shashakar in AoD is badly done, and they changed it in the Jade
reprint. There, the entire reference to uniqueness and the NS is
changed to a simple trait: "Experienced Naga Shugenja". It should
behave as every other card that has text like that.

The basic rules are: you can put in a deck 3 of each card, and 1 of
each unique. EXCEPT that for this the name of the card is not the
only consideration.

An example might be helpful:

"Ann" is not unique. "Bob" is unique. You can have 3 Anns and only
one Bob. Simple.

But L5R is a storyline game. In a story, characters evolve. Other
just change circumstances.

For example, Ann gets an experienced version. This card is also
called Ann, but you can put both anns in a deck because the second
one has "experienced" in her trait box. So you can put 4 of them. Bob
does NOT get experienced. Instead, he simply changed jobs. He was
hired by a Crab lord, and is now "Hida Bob". He is reprinted with
that name, and no experienced trait. Instead, he gets "this card
counts as Bob for uniqueness".

Now say the same happens to Ann a few expansions later, but by this
time she's much better trained already. She becomes Hida Ann, and
gets another experienced level. She gets "experienced 2". BUT a snag;
with just that text, she would no longer be able to "evolve" (think
the Pokemon game) from a previous Ann in play. So to be able to do
that, she has to become "experienced 2 Ann".

Shashakar is Ann without the intermediate level. He was NS, and
became Shashakar, experienced NS. the AoD text was an earlier
unsuccessful attempt to word the above intention.

The Swords are ANOTHER case. The intent with the swords is purely to
limit deck construction. They are separate items, not an evolution.
You simply can't play with both, because in the story the Celestials
were a replacement of the Ancestrals after an angry god took those
from us.

Make more sense?

Abilio

> Assuming I'm on track here, I don't understand how only ONE card
> being
> unique makes the pair exempt from deck construction equivalence. I
> understand the interpretation if BOTH cards are unique or NEITHER
> is
> unique, but I'm confused about only ONE being unique.
>
> Help?!?!
>
> -Rob
>
> At 03:05 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >OK, it's like this. At the time AoD was shipped (the third
> >expansion), the Experienced trait was still only applied to
> >personalities with the same name. For example, Akido Kage has a
> >normal and experienced version. The "generic" Naga personalities
> in
> >Imperial (Shugenja and Warlord) both were done before Naga became
> a
> >faction, so when it came time to experience them, they went
> through a
> >process of "individualization". Thus becoming Shashakar and
> Shahadet.
> >The problem was, thought, that having "experienced" in the trait
> box
> >wouldn't help, because there was no previous version of them.
> >Therefore, they used that clunky trait to link the two
> personalities.
> >A few expansions later, as the number of experienced personalities
> >with name changes increased (Kage lost the family name, Hisa
> gained
> >it, Yasamura married out-of-clan, etc), this text became too
> >cumbersome, and a much more streamlined "Experienced Akodo Kage"
> >appeared, and the "counts as X for uniqueness" was gradually
> changed
> >to be used only in one type of cards: Cards that represented the
> same
> >THING, but had a different type (like Hida Kisada becoming a
> retainer
> >holding. He sure can't be overlayed over the old personality, but
> >having only the "experienced" trait would allow it, BUT it also
> >didn't make sense to have 2 Kisadas in play, one retired old mas
> as
> >holding and one as feisty young behemoth)
> >
> >I believe Shashakar got the new, simpler "Experienced Naga
> Shugenja"
> >in Jade Edition, where he was reprinted. Anyway, the bottom line
> is
> >that in his old card, that "counts as NS for uniqueness" means
> only
> >that he can be overlaid on it (putting him in play as an
> "evolution"
> >of the NS). The rule would only be limiting in deck construction
> if
> >BOTH cards were unique and had the same experienced level, because
> >only then would you be limited to just one per deck.
> >
> >Was that understandable? I tend to ramble a bit.
> >
> >Abilio
> >
> >--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> > > The Shashakar from Anvil of Despair says "This card is
> considered
> > > to be the
> > > Naga Shugenja for uniqueness". Based on that text and my
> pitiful
> > > LACK of
> > > knowledge of all things L5R, it sure sounded to me that
> Shashakar
> > > and the
> > > Naga Shugenja must be treated as the same card for uniqueness
> > > purposes
> > > during deck construction. That's what CV is currently doing.
> > >
> > > If I'm messed up on this, please explain. Remember, I'm largely
> > > clueless
> > > about L5R, although I'm doing my best to learn. Things you
> might
> > > consider
> > > obvious as a veteran player will be anything BUT obvious to me,
> so
> > > please
> > > forgive the ignorance. :-)
> > >
> > > Thanks, Rob
> > >
> > > At 12:45 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >Why would Cardvault care if Shashakar is the NG? All it says
> is
> > > >"Experienced Naga Shugenja", and this should absolutely not
> matter
> > > >for deck construction purposes. All it matters for is that
> > > Shashakar
> > > >can overlay the NS when it enters play, nothing more. Why is
> this
> > > >rule here? I may be missing something, but I can't see it.
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559)
> 658-6995
> Lone Wolf Development
> www.wolflair.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
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>
>


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