Errors and assumptions found in L5R 5.0

I was poking around the new L5R data files, and here's what I found.

Cornered - Pearl Editon
Rarity: "Common" should be "Reprint"
(I think that was a relic from Tetsu's files.)

file under wierdness...
Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in the
deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is a
seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of the
card name fix this?

[note]
Faction clauses on non-personality cards are usually reserved for a
card that will "only attach to a" personality of that faction or "may
only be put into play by" a faction, such as Clan Swords, House
Guards, and faction specific holdings.
[/note]

Prophets
Winds of Change #121
While it does have the "Monk" trait, it should not be listed as
"Brotherhood" faction.

Corrupted Dojo - Winds of Change #21
Oblivion's Gate - Winds of Change #11
Wretches - Winds of Change #22
While they do have the "Shadowlands" trait, they should not have the
"Shadowlands" faction.

Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
Should not have "Ratling" faction

Dojo Raiden - Fall of Otosan Uchi #28
Should not have "Mantis" faction

Hiruma's Last Breath - Gold Edition #180
Should be "Crab" faction

[note]
Also, the Unaligned trait does not necessary mean the character
should
be in the "No Alignment" faction. Most of the Toturi's Army
personalities have the Unaligned trait, but they don't fall into the
None faction.
[/note]

Settozai - Winds of Change #68
Should not have faction "No alignment"

That's it for now. Is there a more appropriate place for these
corrections?


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--- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@att.net> wrote:
> I was poking around the new L5R data files, and here's what I found.
>
> Cornered - Pearl Editon
> Rarity: "Common" should be "Reprint"
> (I think that was a relic from Tetsu's files.)
>
> file under wierdness...
> Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in the
> deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is a
> seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of the
> card name fix this?

Yes, it would. Rob has been making improvements in the data conversion engine
that should fix this one, I suspect.

> [note]
> Faction clauses on non-personality cards are usually reserved for a
> card that will "only attach to a" personality of that faction or "may
> only be put into play by" a faction, such as Clan Swords, House
> Guards, and faction specific holdings.
> [/note]

That is the way I always did it in the past.

> Prophets
> Winds of Change #121
> While it does have the "Monk" trait, it should not be listed as
> "Brotherhood" faction.

As long as it does not have one of the previously mentioned clauses, that would
be correct.

> Corrupted Dojo - Winds of Change #21
> Oblivion's Gate - Winds of Change #11
> Wretches - Winds of Change #22
> While they do have the "Shadowlands" trait, they should not have the
> "Shadowlands" faction.

Same as above

> Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
> Should not have "Ratling" faction

Huh? What is up with this one?

> Dojo Raiden - Fall of Otosan Uchi #28
> Should not have "Mantis" faction

This one came from the data file, IIRC.

> [note]
> Also, the Unaligned trait does not necessary mean the character
> should
> be in the "No Alignment" faction. Most of the Toturi's Army
> personalities have the Unaligned trait, but they don't fall into the
> None faction.
> [/note]

This one has already been brought up to Rob.

> That's it for now. Is there a more appropriate place for these
> corrections?

For tight now, I don't think so... I could add Rob to cv-l5r if he wants, and
that could be used to report errors... Rob?


=====
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Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

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--- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@att.net> wrote:
> I was poking around the new L5R data files, and here's what I found.
>
> Cornered - Pearl Editon
> Rarity: "Common" should be "Reprint"
> (I think that was a relic from Tetsu's files.)
>
> file under wierdness...
> Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in the
> deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is a
> seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of the
> card name fix this?

Yes, it would. Rob has been making improvements in the data conversion engine
that should fix this one, I suspect.

> [note]
> Faction clauses on non-personality cards are usually reserved for a
> card that will "only attach to a" personality of that faction or "may
> only be put into play by" a faction, such as Clan Swords, House
> Guards, and faction specific holdings.
> [/note]

That is the way I always did it in the past.

> Prophets
> Winds of Change #121
> While it does have the "Monk" trait, it should not be listed as
> "Brotherhood" faction.

As long as it does not have one of the previously mentioned clauses, that would
be correct.

> Corrupted Dojo - Winds of Change #21
> Oblivion's Gate - Winds of Change #11
> Wretches - Winds of Change #22
> While they do have the "Shadowlands" trait, they should not have the
> "Shadowlands" faction.

Same as above

> Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
> Should not have "Ratling" faction

Huh? What is up with this one?

> Dojo Raiden - Fall of Otosan Uchi #28
> Should not have "Mantis" faction

This one came from the data file, IIRC.

> [note]
> Also, the Unaligned trait does not necessary mean the character
> should
> be in the "No Alignment" faction. Most of the Toturi's Army
> personalities have the Unaligned trait, but they don't fall into the
> None faction.
> [/note]

This one has already been brought up to Rob.

> That's it for now. Is there a more appropriate place for these
> corrections?

For tight now, I don't think so... I could add Rob to cv-l5r if he wants, and
that could be used to report errors... Rob?


=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

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Before I reply, I found another error. Strike Like the Wind (WoC #7)
is uncommon, not rare.

--- In cardvault@yahoogroups.com, Kuni Tetsu <kuni_tetsu@y...> wrote:
> --- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@a...> wrote:
> >
> > file under wierdness...
> > Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in
> > the deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is
> > a seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of
> > the card name fix this?
>
> Yes, it would. Rob has been making improvements in the data
> conversion engine that should fix this one, I suspect.

Oddly enough, Ik'krt XP does *not* show this behavior with Ik'krt
baseline, but Bayushi Kwanchai XP does.


> > Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
> > Should not have "Ratling" faction
>
> Huh? What is up with this one?

I'm a nitpick, remember? Ch'tppu'kick card text is as follows:

"Great Shining Hoard * Unique
Bow Ch'tppu'kich to produce 2 gold
Battle: Bow Ch'tppu'kich to switch the printed Force of a Ratling
Follower and an opposing non-Ratling Follower."

Anyone can bring it into play, thus not faction specific. Same with
Dojo Raiden, just like the clan *flavored* holdings from A Perfect
Cut, which do not have faction traits.

Yes, I'm incredibly anal. The Scorpion boarded Scorpion Ninja
personalities grouping into their own faction away from the Scorpion
drives me nuts too, but there's nothing I can do about that.




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[rob]

I'm finishing things up on the Diamond release right now. It's been a HUGE
undertaking to try and automate the process, but I think it's pretty much
all working (finally). I'm waiting for one last piece of info from Kuni
Tetsu, at which point I'll get the new data files released.

Specific responses to the items you point out are interspersed below.....

Thanks, Rob


At 05:42 AM 8/18/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>I was poking around the new L5R data files, and here's what I found.
>
>Cornered - Pearl Editon
>Rarity: "Common" should be "Reprint"
>(I think that was a relic from Tetsu's files.)

Now corrected.

>file under wierdness...
>Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in the
>deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is a
>seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of the
>card name fix this?

This should now be sorted out properly.

>[note]
>Faction clauses on non-personality cards are usually reserved for a
>card that will "only attach to a" personality of that faction or "may
>only be put into play by" a faction, such as Clan Swords, House
>Guards, and faction specific holdings.
>[/note]

The base factions assigned to cards prior to Winds of Change are inherited
from the manual editing of Kuni Tetsu. With the huge volume of data he
slogged through, I'm not surprised there's a glitch here or there. If you
find a problem, please report it and I'll get it fixed.

For WoC onward, the base factions assigned are pulled from the data
provided by AEG. If you spot errors, again, please notify me.

Starting with the new updates that are generated automatically, additional
"implied" factions are automatically extracted based on the card's
description text. Since this is an automated process, there may be
differences in language used on certain cards that result in errors of
omission and/or comission. If you spot these, please let me know and I'll
strive to get them fixed.

>Prophets
>Winds of Change #121
>While it does have the "Monk" trait, it should not be listed as
>"Brotherhood" faction.

To my understanding, any Personality, Follower, or Holding with the "Monk"
trait is associated with the "Brotherhood" faction. This "implied"
relationship is the basis for assigning the faction. Is this an invalid
interpretation? If not, what is the correct logic to use? If it IS valid,
then please explain what makes this card special and exempt.

>Corrupted Dojo - Winds of Change #21
>Oblivion's Gate - Winds of Change #11
>Wretches - Winds of Change #22
>While they do have the "Shadowlands" trait, they should not have the
>"Shadowlands" faction.

Based on these, does this mean that Holdings are exempt from the "implied"
rule described above? It sounds like it, but please clarify this for me.

>Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
>Should not have "Ratling" faction

OK. Given your subsequent explanation, I've changed this. However, please
note that I'm *NOT* an L5R expert, so I won't catch these sorts of issues
on other cards. If you find others, let me know and I'll fix them.

>Dojo Raiden - Fall of Otosan Uchi #28
>Should not have "Mantis" faction

Same as above.

>Hiruma's Last Breath - Gold Edition #180
>Should be "Crab" faction

This should now be working.

>[note]
>Also, the Unaligned trait does not necessary mean the character
>should
>be in the "No Alignment" faction. Most of the Toturi's Army
>personalities have the Unaligned trait, but they don't fall into the
>None faction.
>[/note]

Understood. I think this should be working correctly in the converter now.
I did some spot checking just now to be safe, and the files appear to be
accurate. If you spot an exception, let me know.

>Settozai - Winds of Change #68
>Should not have faction "No alignment"

Should now be working....

>That's it for now. Is there a more appropriate place for these
>corrections?

Here is fine for now. Or you can send them directly to me at
rob@wolflair.com. Once the automated converter gets shaken out a bit and
verified to be accurate, and once Bob's life settles down a little bit, the
plan is for Bob to take the L5R files back. At that point, the load on Bob
should be significantly reduced due to 99% of the work being automated. So
this is an interim arrangement with me working on the files - I'm really
focused on the converter, plus adding the means for properly "fixing up"
any errors generated by the converter.

Thanks, Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (559) 658-6995
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com


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--- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@att.net> wrote:
> Before I reply, I found another error. Strike Like the Wind (WoC #7)
> is uncommon, not rare.

Thanks for the info. I am not certain why AEG has them recorded differently,
this one will have to be tracked down.

> --- In cardvault@yahoogroups.com, Kuni Tetsu <kuni_tetsu@y...> wrote:
> > --- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > file under wierdness...
> > > Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in
> > > the deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is
> > > a seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of
> > > the card name fix this?
> >
> > Yes, it would. Rob has been making improvements in the data
> > conversion engine that should fix this one, I suspect.
>
> Oddly enough, Ik'krt XP does *not* show this behavior with Ik'krt
> baseline, but Bayushi Kwanchai XP does.

That is likely due to extra spaces or a difference in the apostrophe.

> > > Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
> > > Should not have "Ratling" faction
> >
> > Huh? What is up with this one?
>
> I'm a nitpick, remember? Ch'tppu'kick card text is as follows:
>
> "Great Shining Hoard * Unique
> Bow Ch'tppu'kich to produce 2 gold
> Battle: Bow Ch'tppu'kich to switch the printed Force of a Ratling
> Follower and an opposing non-Ratling Follower."

Ah! It is a holding? Sorry, that would be my error. Rob may well have fixed
this one already.

> Anyone can bring it into play, thus not faction specific. Same with
> Dojo Raiden, just like the clan *flavored* holdings from A Perfect
> Cut, which do not have faction traits.
>
> Yes, I'm incredibly anal. The Scorpion boarded Scorpion Ninja
> personalities grouping into their own faction away from the Scorpion
> drives me nuts too, but there's nothing I can do about that.

If they are scorpion bordered, then likely they are scorpions also. They can
belong to both factions. So you are saying that there are scorpions that do not
have the scorpion faction?



=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

__________________________________
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--- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@att.net> wrote:
> Before I reply, I found another error. Strike Like the Wind (WoC #7)
> is uncommon, not rare.

Thanks for the info. I am not certain why AEG has them recorded differently,
this one will have to be tracked down.

> --- In cardvault@yahoogroups.com, Kuni Tetsu <kuni_tetsu@y...> wrote:
> > --- Alex Durden <hunter.rose@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > file under wierdness...
> > > Akodo Tadenori (Gold #196)is hidden when Merge Duplicate is on in
> > > the deck editor by Akodo Tadenori (Winds of Change #43), which is
> > > a seperate, experienced card. Would adding "(Exp)" to the end of
> > > the card name fix this?
> >
> > Yes, it would. Rob has been making improvements in the data
> > conversion engine that should fix this one, I suspect.
>
> Oddly enough, Ik'krt XP does *not* show this behavior with Ik'krt
> baseline, but Bayushi Kwanchai XP does.

That is likely due to extra spaces or a difference in the apostrophe.

> > > Ch'tppu'kich - Fall of Otosan Uchi #29
> > > Should not have "Ratling" faction
> >
> > Huh? What is up with this one?
>
> I'm a nitpick, remember? Ch'tppu'kick card text is as follows:
>
> "Great Shining Hoard * Unique
> Bow Ch'tppu'kich to produce 2 gold
> Battle: Bow Ch'tppu'kich to switch the printed Force of a Ratling
> Follower and an opposing non-Ratling Follower."

Ah! It is a holding? Sorry, that would be my error. Rob may well have fixed
this one already.

> Anyone can bring it into play, thus not faction specific. Same with
> Dojo Raiden, just like the clan *flavored* holdings from A Perfect
> Cut, which do not have faction traits.
>
> Yes, I'm incredibly anal. The Scorpion boarded Scorpion Ninja
> personalities grouping into their own faction away from the Scorpion
> drives me nuts too, but there's nothing I can do about that.

If they are scorpion bordered, then likely they are scorpions also. They can
belong to both factions. So you are saying that there are scorpions that do not
have the scorpion faction?



=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

__________________________________
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--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> If you want, we can do that. I'm hoping that the shakeout of errors for the
> converter won't be a lengthy process, so my hope is that this group ought
> to suffice until things get stable. If I'm wrong, then the alternate group
> is a better solution. I'll leave it to your judgement.....

You're probably right that his list will work. You might want to remove the
reference to cv-l5r from the data files, however, if you are going to handle
the issues here

Tell you what, I will add you for now. We can always just let the list wither
on the vine if it does not get used.


=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

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--- Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
> At 11:10 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > "Great Shining Hoard * Unique
> > > Bow Ch'tppu'kich to produce 2 gold
> > > Battle: Bow Ch'tppu'kich to switch the printed Force of a Ratling
> > > Follower and an opposing non-Ratling Follower."
> >
> >Ah! It is a holding? Sorry, that would be my error. Rob may well have fixed
> >this one already.
>
> Does this mean that holdings are NOT treated like personalities and
> followers? I didn't see an answer to my question on this in a previous
> post, but this seems to imply an answer. Please clarify so I can get things
> corrected.

For holding, followers or items in the previous version of the data files, I
added the trait only if the card can only be used by that faction. That was to
facilitate people identifying cards that would go well in a Crab deck, for
instance.

I don't know if they have the clan border or not, other folks will have to
answer that part. The border was the usual indicator of clan fealty, but those
usually apply only to personalities. However, the true indicator is pretty much
the fealty flag on the card text "Crab scholar" or "Naga shugenja" or similar.


=====
---

Kuni Tetsu
Clan War rules guy
Moderator of ClanWar-l

__________________________________
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My you've been busy

--- In cardvault@yahoogroups.com, Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> To my understanding, any Personality, Follower, or Holding with the
> "Monk" trait is associated with the "Brotherhood" faction. This
> "implied" relationship is the basis for assigning the faction. Is
> this an invalid interpretation? If not, what is the correct logic
> to use? If it IS valid, then please explain what makes this card
> special and exempt.

Oh boy. In short, the only card types that have "implied" factions
from traits are Personalities and Ancestors. For all other cards
types, the only thing that would "imply" a faction would be the text
"may only be played by a (faction) player" or "may only attach to a
(faction) personality". If you want the full reasoning, brace
yourself, 'cause here it goes. Welcome to the weirdness that is
produced by eight years of rules backlog.

The only card types that have an actual Faction are personalities
(peeps for short), since that's the only hard coded (i.e. rulebook)
card type where it will come into play (there are advantages to
playing personalites of your chosen faction). This trait was
originally expressed as "(faction name here) Clan". Ancestors have
the exact same text, and since they can only be used with peeps of
that same faction, they're usually listed as that faction in card
data. Similarly, cards that could only be used by a player or peep
of
that faction got the same treatment as ancestors.

In the beginning, with every expansion, they added new factions. To
make it so that factions weren't behind in the personality pool, some
factions were created from peeps that had a common trait, a "job"
trait so to speak. Brotherhood was made up of monk peeps, Yogo
Junzo's Army (now Shadowalands Horde) was shadowlands peeps, Ninja
from ninja peeps. The "jobs" became faction traits. The cards never
said "Brotherhood Clan Monk" or "Ninja Clan Ninja", they stayed
"Monk"
and "Ninja". Thus a faction was born fully into the game with a
slighyly larger card pool then if they just had thier expansion to
draw from. These traits are still used today, even when some of
these
factions are no longer legal choices in the play environment.

Unfortunately for your automation project, their are, and will
continue to be, cards that still use the "job" traits as just that,
and have no bearing on a Faction. Prophets are just followers with
the Monk trait, not Brotherhood Clan followers. Oblivion's Gate just
happens to be a Shadowlands card, any faction can play it, and the
Shadowlands faction gets no special benefit out of it by strict
definition of the rules (other than the cardinal rule of all CCGs:
The
Cards Get to Break the Rules.) Some cards might play off the "job"
trait, but they won't play off it as a faction trait.

Is that a satifactory answer?






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