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Chemlak
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 432

Old December 24th, 2013, 07:45 PM
I'm posting this in its own thread so that LWD can kill it with fire if they want to, but I've been wanting to say something for a while, now.

I've seen an increasing number of complaints that LWD haven't met their release schedule for Realm Works. These complaints invariably come from people who didn't back the Kickstarter, because those of us who did have actually got RW now.

I get it, I really do. This software is the dogs bollocks (UK English colloquialism - look it up) of campaign management software. It is unique, flexible, powerful, and a one-stop shop for handling complex worlds.

It also isn't finished, yet.

There are some things still outstanding before LWD think it should be launched to the general public, and I agree with their decision.

LWD are not beholden to a publisher. They don't have to meet anyone else's release schedule, no matter the state of the software. They have decided that it needs to meet a particular level of stability and functionality, and they are not going to release it until it does.

That's a pretty brave move in today's "I want it now, so I'll get what there is" marketplace.

Time and again, LWD have explained themselves, and they really shouldn't need to.

Now, here's how I see things. I backed the Kickstarter. I put my money into this project. I applied for the beta, but didn't get in. I really, really, REALLY wanted this software, or something like it. So I fronted enough cash to get early access (and more). And I have not once complained, even when they first said EA would be in May, and June came around with nothing. Yes, people, I gave them money and got nothing when they said I would, and I didn't complain.

So I simply cannot understand how anyone who has not paid LWD a single cent for RW can choose to complain about not having it.

Yes, I understand that you want to give them your money, and get the product in return. No worries, there. But they will not take it from you until you can be given what you pay for.

Please stop complaining that you don't have RW, yet. It's coming. It will be awesome, and it will be everything you hope it will be, and it will be functional and stable.
Chemlak is offline   #1
enrious
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Old December 24th, 2013, 11:58 PM
This.

Having seen the evolutions, I'm more and more thankful that time and time again they've gone with the right approach rather than the fast but wrong one.

And like Chemlak, I experienced the frustrations of seeing the early release being pushed back month after month after month, so I empathize to a large degree. Believe me, I do.

And understand, for almost of the vocal Kickstarter backers you'll see here - we all went through it and this was for software we pledged (and spent) money on before seeing even the early access release!

Heck, we used to joke around about meeting at the RW Bar, because several were checking the KS page every hour or so, around certain milestones, again even before the early release.

So I get the impatience, to a point...which ends with those of you who didn't back the KS, who didn't take a leap of faith on a project with your own cash will have missed those bad days of the summer. No, you'll be able to safely and securely see a polished release version with way more functionality and less problems than we saw and you'll be able to do so without risk.

So yeah, that's where my empathy ends. I understand the impatience, heck we were there too (and I'd wager we had it worse than you). I just don't get the sense of entitlement.

So call us fanbois or whatnot. It doesn't change our being where you've been - only we also see the software a little sooner than you, the good parts and the bad parts. In exchange, you'll get to see a much better product and decide after you see if it's right for you.
enrious is offline   #2
KefkaZ
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Old December 25th, 2013, 06:14 PM
The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.

Edit: After reading some of the bugs still ongoing and their severity, I am significantly more ok with things than I was when I wrote the above. I still am hoping to see a pre-release soon!

Last edited by KefkaZ; December 25th, 2013 at 06:51 PM.
KefkaZ is offline   #3
Mead
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Posts: 31

Old December 25th, 2013, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KefkaZ View Post
The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.

Edit: After reading some of the bugs still ongoing and their severity, I am significantly more ok with things than I was when I wrote the above. I still am hoping to see a pre-release soon!
That is a great post, complainer or not.

If they have to release it before it is ready, it just makes it harder for them to fix the bugs.

That is why most software has closed BETAs to start. Then they open up when ready. The prerelease stuff Steam does is a fairly new phenomenon.

Last edited by Mead; December 25th, 2013 at 09:47 PM.
Mead is offline   #4
Knightblde
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 68

Old December 26th, 2013, 06:11 AM
Code Monkey Publishing and Fluid Entertainment both tried to take on a task such as RealmWorks or HeroLabs. Both took pre-orders and both failed miserably.

These guys have built something way better than I hoped. They update and fix things all the time. Let them give you a product that you can appreciate and on that they can be proud of. Trust me, it is worth the wait.
Knightblde is offline   #5
ifandbut
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 15

Old December 26th, 2013, 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KefkaZ View Post
The frustrating piece is that most of us "complainers" are fine with the mostly-finished nature and many of us didn't know about the kickstarter until it was too late. This is not us complaining about it not being done. We get that. The frustration lies in that "traditionally" (and I use "" because it's not like there has been a lot of kickstarter tradition) when the kickstarter lower-level backers get their product, the product goes on sale.

Which is really all we want. Sell us what all the early investors have already had access to.
This. I only recently started getting into traditional RPGs recently. I'm trying to get things together to DM a campaign and I am dumbfounded by how hard it is to keep my stuff organized. Then I discovered RealmWorks a few months ago and instantly thought "THIS IS WHAT I NEED". Now, several months later after promises and promises it still appears no closer to release. If I had known about the kickstarter and been interested in RPGs back when I would have gladly paid the $80 for beta.

What frustrates me the most is they refuse to just "shut up and take my money".

Last edited by ifandbut; December 26th, 2013 at 07:44 AM.
ifandbut is offline   #6
fhscholl
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Old December 26th, 2013, 09:39 AM
Let me be clear here that I am frustrated with the lack of a public RW release, but I am not in any way saying they should rush this out the door.

My frustration comes from the repeated inability to properly set expectations. I missed the Kickstarter, but in March I looked at the July date and shrugged. It really wasn't that much of a wait. When July came around I checked on it again and it had changed to October. Fine. Delays (especially with kickstarters) happen. Then in October, it went to "fall 2013." So, I checked throughout the fall and saw a possible pre-release by Christmas.

I look back now and realize it has been almost 10 months since I missed the Kickstarter by a few days. It has been a roller coaster of anticipation that has gotten old.

Hell, I would gladly throw $100 at LWD for pre-release access to RW and sign an NDA right now, but I have asked repeatedly and been told no.

There is nothing else to do but wait at this point and hope I still have the same level of interest if/when it does hit the public market.
fhscholl is offline   #7
enrious
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Posts: 175

Old December 26th, 2013, 06:18 PM
Fwiw, I completely understand the frustrations expressed here and empathize with you folks.

Kefkaz - I haven't lately experienced any of the show-stopping bugs that others have report, and yet every hour I still manually export my database just in case because one of the early crashes caused me to completely re-enter the ICONS rules in my realm. They only recently (relatively speaking) added all of the Kickstarters to the testing pool, so who knows what else we'll find that could go out and bite someone when it's released?

I think part of the disconnect may be the thinking/terminology used - IME, Realm Works is amazing when it works, but if you ask the people who've had major problems, it's not ready for release. Likely the truth lies between, but I'd say closer to amazing at this point, something I couldn't have said when we got into the Early Access Pre-Release.

Mead - we said the same thing before we got into the Early Access - for three months - "Let us in, we know we'll have problems, it's no sweat!" One of the things that was pointed out, and I'd suspect this to be as true or more true now, is that you start in a small circle of testers so you only have to deal with a small number of reports/issues, likely the most obvious/common ones. Then you expand, and expand later, but you only do so when you think you can handle the volume of problems/questions, of that bigger circle and also that of your current one.

Just looking at rough, public numbers, they added 49 people to the beta team right after the KS ended. The minute they flipped the switch on Early Access, they added 650 people testing, reporting, asking, etc. That's not insignificant.

ifandbut - It was amazing how many of us used MS OneNote or some freeware alternative. I used notepad for the most part. Yes, notepad. I think RW will be a boon for new users, when it comes out, but I think perhaps one of the more frustrating things to you may be that you don't see the constant updates and new features that are added (and thus scratched off the "Must complete before 1.0 release"), like Cloud Syncing. Yes, I can now save a realm to the cloud. W00t. We've been waiting on it forever and just got it a few days ago. It's actually a big milestone, but a milestone is all it is.

For example, some people may jump on that and scream out, "They can Sync to the Cloud! RW is READY! RELEASE IT NAO!!!111!!!" Or some local variation.

However, it's not even close. I can sync to the cloud...and sync back down. I can't share information, I can only sync from one screen currently...and I can't be logged in the realm when I do it. There's been oddities when syncing on one computer and trying to sync on another. So yeah, at this point it's basically the same as exporting (backing up) my realm to a file and putting the file in my dropbox folder. Those are only some of the current limitations, but I think illustrative of the disconnect between people with different expectations trying to fit the same terminology to fit their own perspectives, which is perfectly understandable.

As for the money thing, I think a lot of it has to do with the above regarding adding even more people and their reports to have to deal with. Not counting people who increased their pledges to get Early Access, over 700 more people have been using, reporting, suggesting, and whatnot from the time the KS ended to now. It may simply be that they have enough of that they can handle - I seem to remember a time in the past where it took someone like Liz 20 minutes per person to configure your account to use the server for the first time. We simply don't know what other such steps may be involved that would be on the "v1.0 To Do List".

fhscholl - Setting expectations: All I can say is you're welcome to mosey up to the Realm Works Bar with the rest of us regulars. Every delay you saw until what, close to August(?) were ones we thought may be the one to let us in...of course, they also delayed the release to the public by just as long, so you're all invited.

Last edited by enrious; December 26th, 2013 at 06:20 PM.
enrious is offline   #8
llothos
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 29

Old December 26th, 2013, 11:34 PM
delays are delays and it happens, but it's the thorough lack of communication that upsets the fans and those of us that missed out or couldn't back the project at the time. I for one do not believe in backing something that is a "promise"...we "promise" to make this product if you give us your money. I'm not saying Lone Wolf is a shady company but projects do become bigger than expected or something major occurs within the company and they just can't work on it anymore and project gets scrapped, my money is now wasted as those resources have already likely been spent. I will however give money to something that is "early access" as I have something I can sink my teeth into and watch it grow, it's a fairly new concept (thats become popular) and it's working.

I respect a company that wants to release a product "when it's ready" and I will wait patiently but what I do not respect is a lack of communication to the community. Sometimes it's days between posts and prior to that it was worse, and they made the mistake of giving too narrow of a time frame for expected release windows for various stages of development. You disappoint less when you keep release info more vague and after you are sure you can hit a specific date then you give specifics. Instead of saying release in july then push it to sept and then sept comes and it's changed to oct then finally changed to maybe by christmas time they should have indicated maybe Q4 2013 to Q1 2014 but then keep the community posted with regular updates.
llothos is offline   #9
Zinquox
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 11

Old December 27th, 2013, 12:52 AM
Honestly no matter what people would be upset. Its the nature of the beast. If LWD had never put out any sort of date, if for instance it just said "coming soon" with no date, then people would still get upset because "soon" shouldn't mean such a long period of time or what not. If we were getting daily updates people would complain that too much time and energy was being put into keeping us up to date, that time and energy should be used to get the product into our hands. If they released it with bugs it should have spent more time in development. When it spends too much time in development, it should be released now!
"...You can never please all of the people all of the time" has never been more true, especially in this day and age when we can all voice our opinions in relative anonymity on message boards. Face we are all going to be upset. I'm going to be upset, you're going to upset, I'm sure LWD is even upset. We all know that coming onto the forums and complaining won't do us any good, or the project any good, but we do it because for a small moment maybe it makes us feel better, I say we all just need to take a deep breath and understand that no matter what we do RW is going to come when it comes, and no amount of belly aching on our side is going to induce this labor any sooner.
Zinquox is offline   #10
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