Super-Speed/Time Control Array

[Colen]

Rogue, I think you're reading too much into the rules. Yes, Super-Speed gives you the option to use these special 2pp/rank alternate powers at the same time as Quickness & Speed, but you can still choose a totally different power as a "regular" alternate power, couldn't you?

[roguescribner]

That's just it: the regular alternate power should also be 2pp/rank. Everything I've been reading on the ATT forum supports that. Until recently, I never really built a speedster so it wasn't something I was aware of, but it really seems to be the general consensus over there that any alt powers for Super-Speed should be limited to 2pp/rank.

Super-Speed is the umbrella under which the array lies. Any powers placed into that array should not follow the parent cost of Super-Speed because it's not technically part of the array. Any alternate powers associated with Super-Speed should only concern themselves with the power's rank, not its cost.

Think about it this way: the Special Alternate Power super-speed provides in really the base effect/primary power for the super-speed array. Since it is limited to 2pp/rank of super-speed, so should any other alternate powers placed in the same array.

[roguescribner]

Originally Posted by Duggan

Or if the Super-Speed power itself were APed, meaning that you don't have access to its benefits. To allow for both cases, they have the regular AP if you want to AP all of Super-Speed, as seen in my Insubstantial example upthread, or the "Special AP" which is limited to just the 2*Rank points. I've tried both and they both work, even in concert on the same power.

Are you not getting this behavior on your copy of the software? Or are you objecting to having to set up the Super-Speed APs differently than APs on other powers?

I'm not sure what you posted is legal.

From what I gather, it should be:

Super-Speed

Speed + Quickness + Improve Initiative + [Special Alternate Power]

That's a container of effects. Steve Kenson has even said that Super-Speed is a container that contains an array, not an array itself.

Now, from the cost of the Special Alternate Power, you can build an array of standard alternate powers. You can only use either the SAP or any of the other alts once per round per the rules. But Speed+Quickness+Improved Initiative is always available apart from the array.

Again, the Core rules do not make this explicit, but UP certainly does.

Super-Speed is the box that wraps around its associated array of alternate powers. Just like using the Array structure from UP, you get one "free" power at 2pp/rank and then any alts cost 1pp and can cost no more than 2pp/rank. You do not gain multiple special alternate powers for super-speed and you can't have two arrays under the same umbrella.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by roguescribner

I'm not sure what you posted is legal.

From what I gather, it should be:

Super-Speed

Speed + Quickness + Improve Initiative + [Special Alternate Power]

That's a container of effects. Steve Kenson has even said that Super-Speed is a container that contains an array, not an array itself.

Now, from the cost of the Special Alternate Power, you can build an array of standard alternate powers. You can only use either the SAP or any of the other alts once per round per the rules. But Speed+Quickness+Improved Initiative is always available apart from the array.

Again, the Core rules do not make this explicit, but UP certainly does.

Super-Speed is the box that wraps around its associated array of alternate powers. Just like using the Array structure from UP, you get one "free" power at 2pp/rank and then any alts cost 1pp and can cost no more than 2pp/rank. You do not gain multiple special alternate powers for super-speed and you can't have two arrays under the same umbrella.

For what it's worth, I lend my support to roguescribner's interpretation of things. Especially that "...is the box that wraps around..." metaphor and his "Just like using the Array structure from UP" since the book lists the "effect" of Super-Speed as *gasp* an Array. A Power in UP that has Array as an effect is just an Array with a different label....an identifier of what "type" of Array it is really more than a bona-fide, stand-alone Power.

Golly I hope they clear that up in M&M 3rd Edition.

Okay, getting off of my soapbox now.

[Duggan]

{nods} So Super-Speed is a Container that has an array in it. If you have an AP off of the array (here, a Special Array), it's 2PP per rank total and you can use it while using the other effects. If you AP off of the Container (here the "regular" AP), you have 5 pp per rank and you can't use the Speed, Quickness, and Improved Initiative.

As regards the particular AP combination maybe not being legal, would it be legal if you took it the other way?

Insubstantial 4
..AP: Super-Speed 4 (with all of its effects and the array)

Even were Super-Speed not a Container, one is allowed a collection of effects in an array slot. And when it is... well, one of the other major examples of a Container, the Alternate Form, lets you AP off of it.

^_^ Honestly, I keep feeling like we're violently agreeing here that the super-speed array is 2 pp/rank etc, but disagreeing on whether the Container can be APed.

[roguescribner]

Wouldn't you be effectively nesting an array that way? You'd have a Super-Speed array list of alts and then another list of alts for the container. That seems like double-dipping to me.

Super-Speed could be part of an array, but then it shouldn't also provide an array as well.

Is this an ORQ? Too bad they don't do those anymore. Heh.

[roguescribner]

Also, as Nigel points out, UP doesn't list the effect of Super-Speed as Container and Array, but rather an Array with Speed and Quickness added to it as a bonus. Super-Speed is supposed to provide the whole package for a Speedster: super-speed and also some speed-based attacks/effects. That's not to say you can't have another array outside of the power, but if you AP off of Super-Speed, it should follow the 2pp/rank array rules, not follow the parent-cost.

If Super-Speed were part of an array and it also provided its own array of alts, that seems like a huge and unintended cost break. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

[Duggan]

So the disagreement is basically on whether Super-Speed should be treated as a container.

As for nested APs, Steve Kenson's weighed in saying that it's legal, but a GM should look it over to make sure the player isn't trying to pull something over on them.

Personally, I used it in a Weapons Summoning array on one of my characters to have one weapon be a grenade launcher with the various grenades be APs. It meant that the nested power only had 16 pp of powers instead of the 20 for most of the slots, but it also meant I didn't have to spend an addition pp for each grenade type.

Ultimately, I feel that the behavior of Super-Speed treats itself as an Container which holds an array. For example the ability to apply Affects Others to the power as a whole. Moreover, in the ORQ forum, he's stated that Super-Speed is a Container.

[roguescribner]

Okay, deep breath.

So the intended action in Hero Lab for anyone wishing to utilize Super-Speed's array effect is to purchase multiple Special Alternate Power feats, correct? But if you instead wished to turn Super-Speed into the base power of an array (meaning if you use an alternate power, you no longer have access to any Super-Speed effects), just click the alternate power button you use in every other power screen, is that right?

If that's the intent, then fine, I guess I'll have to remember to do that in the future if I ever build a speedster again. But I don't think that's really clear (reading the books and then using that to build in Hero Lab) and I wager there are a lot of people just using the standard AP button thinking they're utilizing the Super-Speed array effect.

Maybe some text can be added to Super-Speed's/Time Control's description in Hero Lab to make clear the route you're supposed to take.

[Shadowchaser]

The super-speed power is not only 'Broken' in here (5pp array is patently wrong, it's a 2pp per rank array), the design should be a container.

5pp Per Rank (5pp in each rank of the container)
2pp Array (Super-Speed Stunts) First stunt is free (essentially the base power of the array)
1pp Speed
1pp Quickness
1pp Improved Initiative feat

The reason this HAS to be the way it is built is because you don't lose the Speed, the Quickness, OR the Improved Initiative when you use the power stunts. So you're not AP'ing off the whole container, you're only AP'ing off the 2pp array.

I have long been building my own Speed containers to get around this mistake, and to 'fine tune' the power so I could cut down on the points spent on Improved Initiative. Like any container, it should allow you to spend more or less on any single element of the container as long as you've spent 5pp (or less) per rank in the container as a whole. The super-speed power as it is built in the Ultimate Power book is a good 'Example' of the power, and shows how they built the one in the core rulebook, but it is not the only way Super-Speed can be handled.

Further, would it be possible to 'jailbreak' the Super-speed Running Punch so it could be used with any movement power? This would be very helpful, and seems more in the spirit of the rules than having to re-build it from scratch just because I chose to be a speedy flier instead of a runner. Also, having the 'Rapid Attack' power feat (a 2pp per rank power stunt off the array based on +0 Strike with +1 Area Effect and +1 Selective, lets you use your Strength on anyone within the Area Effect range) available for home-brew arrays or APs would mean a lot less work for custom power builds.


Thanks again, Colen!