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Fuzzy
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Old April 15th, 2018, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ualaa View Post
I suspect that if you prefer a non-online and non-subscription model, Hero Lab classic will be there for you.

A lot of us will go for both versions.
No one is forced to use either model.
I highly doubt you'll see pf2 in any official form for hlc. They blew all their resources misguidedly creating hlo instead of simply adding an API or online capabilities to hlc, so now they sort of feel internally obligated to 'force' users into using it. When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.
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Toblakai
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Old April 15th, 2018, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
I highly doubt you'll see pf2 in any official form for hlc. They blew all their resources misguidedly creating hlo instead of simply adding an API or online capabilities to hlc, so now they sort of feel internally obligated to 'force' users into using it. When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.
HLO was a fantastic decision, and adding an online component to HLC classic wouldn't end well the interface is already seriously dated, it works but it feels like a late 90's app. Online capabilities would have to be kludged in. It also doesn't solve the android app problem either.
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Fuzzy
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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:45 PM
What I (and others) had asked for 5 or 6 years ago, was simply adding an API to the hero lab software - which would allow the already thriving hero lab user community at the time to develop their own apps for the system. Whether that was various live-play character sheets, combat managers, coordinated party management or direct VTT tie-ins, it would have opened up the software to a myriad of various use cases. Instead, they focused on a very narrow focused online-only product, tied to their servers only, that is usable how they decide it should be used, when circumstances allow it to be used, and that is all.

HLO is only a 'fantastic' decision, if it didn't mean the abandonment of the HLC platform. To date, I don't believe they have made any indication that future systems will be developed for HLC at all.

Last edited by Fuzzy; April 15th, 2018 at 08:47 PM.
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Dami
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Old April 16th, 2018, 04:06 AM
...and again, in less than a day, the thread is back to arguing about HLO.

Current RPG's: D&D 3.5 (GM), Pathfinder (Player), Gamma World (GM).
HeroLab: 3.5 & Pathfinder. HL User Files for PF: Greyhawk Setting, Gamma World (WIP).

DM and player of D&D since 1980.
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Azhrei
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Old April 16th, 2018, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.
It's called "economics". When you bet the family farm, that bet must pay off or... you lose the farm.

The only companies that can get away with abusing that rule have so much money that it doesn't matter. Some tech companies (Alphabet/Google, Apple) and investment houses (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc), for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
What I (and others) had asked for 5 or 6 years ago, was simply adding an API to the hero lab software [...]
Except this isn't so simple. In fact, it's a lot of work. And it doesn't have any immediate payoff either, unlike converting Paizo books into data sets.

Given the current UX around HLC, I would be willing to bet that it would be significant work to retrofit any kind of "plugin" API. Speaking as someone who has seen a lot of "enterprise" code first hand, very little of it is any good from an architectural or design standpoint. It might've been top-notch at first, but later developers come along and don't adhere to the design philosophy or architectural choices made by the original team, so things quickly go to pot.

Quote:
HLO is only a 'fantastic' decision, if it didn't mean the abandonment of the HLC platform. To date, I don't believe they have made any indication that future systems will be developed for HLC at all.
Many companies preserve and even develop their legacy products, even if they've decided their future lies elsewhere. Car manufacturers badly want to be in the electric market, but know that their expertise is in fossil fuel designs, so they plan for a long transition (measured in years or even decades).

But they have the capital to sustain that kind of time frame, LWD doesn't. I have to applaud LWD for taking the plunge into web technologies to service their customers, I just don't think it'll work out for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dami View Post
...and again, in less than a day, the thread is back to arguing about HLO.
Dude, this is the INTERNET! What did you expect was going to happen?! It's already been established that there's not enough information about PF2 to have an informed discussion, so we need a proxy. Hence, HLO v. HLC. "Battle of the Century!"

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LazarX
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Old April 17th, 2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Azhrei View Post
While that's true perhaps for D&D 5e, there were not that many changes from the Pathfinder Beta release to the Final release. They tweaked combat maneuvers (it seems a right of passage for any revision of the D&D3 rules to tweak how grapple works!!) and a few of the classes (added some sorcerer bloodlines, IIRC), but they were about 90-95% the same.

One company's handling of playtests != another company's handling of the same thing!
There was a considerable amount of change from Alpha to release, and what's coming out in the Summer is being advertised as Alpha, not Beta.
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RavenX
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Old April 17th, 2018, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Toblakai View Post
Ugg.. I'm sorry for you, I don't know how I could live without d20pfsrd.com during a gaming session

I guess it re-enforces GM fiat though.
The place has no wifi access and the building's walls are thick. The metal roof and insulation pretty much block cell phone signals. Now, to be honest, its a great place to game without the distraction of internet as well. Yeah I have to do without online services like d20srds but at the same time I have physical copies of the books which defeats that purpose anyway. System Reference Documents are stripped down versions of their parent systems, so you do end up missing some content that is in the book. I'd rather use the books just because of that. Also, I used to have a player who once he got online was useless as a player to the group. He wouldn't pay attention at all when we were doing things and the game was running. Once we started using the ghetto store he got his head in the game. It's not an ideal location, but its also an ideal location. I know running the game up there is difficult at times for some people but for me its nice to have a game without the distractions of the internet and players not paying attention to the game. Every pays attention to what's going on at the tabletop up there. "Device-Free" gaming has its perks too so its one reason I wouldn't think of changing locations for awhile. I know it annoys some players but ultimately I think the good outweighs the bad. When you have nothing else to do but play D&D and there's no distractions around, it leads to fun games and players who get through encounters. We get solid games done up there so I do like the location.

RavenX

Please do not PM me to inquire about datafiles I coded "for personal use" such as Exalted, World of Darkness, AD&D, or Warhammer 40K Roleplaying. I appreciate your interest, but I do not own the Intellectual Property rights to these game systems. Nor do I have permission from any of the Publishers to distribute the data files. As such, I cannot distribute the work I have done with community on these files. They are "for personal use" only. Thank you.
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Azhrei
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Old April 18th, 2018, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarX View Post
There was a considerable amount of change from Alpha to release, and what's coming out in the Summer is being advertised as Alpha, not Beta.
You quote a paragraph from more than a month ago. In that time, Paizo has posted many blog articles discussing the changes. They are going to be significant. Much more significant than the change from D&D3.5 to Pathfinder (which was often called "D&D 3.75").

Paizo has said that there won't be any conversion of characters from PF1 to PF2; there will only be rebuilds. Thus, the existing PF1 data set that HLC has will be useless (well, not entirely; maybe 30% usable?) when moving to PF2...
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Farling
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Old April 18th, 2018, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azhrei View Post
Paizo has said that there won't be any conversion of characters from PF1 to PF2; there will only be rebuilds. Thus, the existing PF1 data set that HLC has will be useless (well, not entirely; maybe 30% usable?) when moving to PF2...
If this turns out to be the reality with PF2, then there's no reason to move to PF2 rather than D&D5 (or stick with PF1, if they'll continue to produce adventure paths and modules for it).

Farling

Author of the CSV2RW tool (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=58156) and the RW Output tool (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59981)
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ShadowChemosh
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Old April 18th, 2018, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
If this turns out to be the reality with PF2,
How much of a conversion guide the final book is going to have is not 100% finished and I don't think will be until 2019. But PF2 is not being marketed as being backwards compatible like PF1 was to 3.5 or how monsters are in Starfinder to Pathfinder.

This time pretty fundamental changes are happening to the core rules engine instead of heavy tweaks like PF1 was. I think you would be best to plan that backwards compatibility does not exist this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farling View Post
(or stick with PF1, if they'll continue to produce adventure paths and modules for it).
I think it was August of 2019 all support for PF1 ends. That is the official announcement from the CEO of Paizo. The last PF1 adventure path is Return of the Runelords I forget what the last PF1 module is.

Basically when PF2 launches at GenCon 2019 no more PF1 material from Paizo is going to be produced (3PP are NOT being stopped from producing PF1 material). Now then the PF2 modules/adventures would still be usable for its story and ideas. But you would most likely need to swap out a PF2 monster with a PF1 monster or manually convert yourself (or wait for others on the net to do it).

I am pretty happy with the changes I have seen from Paizo so far. Honestly since playing Starfinder I was not looking forward to DMing Pathfinder again. Its just been such breath of fresh air with Starfinder rules that I was not looking forward to the issues of PF1 again. Though I do wish Dead Suns had a better and more logical story.

Maybe worth looking at PF2 to see what the Paizo team can really do when not shackled to the 3.5 engine. I looked at 5e and did some help with the guys to setup 5e community Pack. I was not impressed with what I saw actually. 5e super simple design and game play with never gaining power as you level is not for me.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
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