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kbs666
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Old March 24th, 2017, 05:59 PM
What you're talking about in database speak is many to many relationships. Databases don't tend to handle many to many relationships well at all. I'm not saying it can't be done just that there is quite likely a performance price to be paid for doing so.

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Silveras
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Old March 24th, 2017, 06:53 PM
The "recommended practice" is ... don't put NPCs in a specific place.

Containment is meant for permanent, or near-permanent, locations (like a building in a settlement, or a settlement on a geographic location [note: NOT a political region]).

That being said, I would find phantom copies extra confusing. What I prefer to do is to place the NPC (or Item, or whatever) in a holding place ... such as under a Cast List (Adventure Allies, Adventure Enemies, Adventure Support, SettlementX Residents, etc.).

Something else to remember is that, depending on the GM, once the campaign starts, there's no guarantee that the NPC (or Item, etc.) will [i[stay[/i] where it started. If I have a Cult Leader (as in the example), I would want to see ONE copy so I know where he is... and I'd move that one copy from container to container to mark the location changes as the game plays out.
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Ckorik
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Old March 24th, 2017, 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
What you're talking about in database speak is many to many relationships. Databases don't tend to handle many to many relationships well at all. I'm not saying it can't be done just that there is quite likely a performance price to be paid for doing so.
Right now they are storing the links between items somehow - because you can literally pull up a view of every link the item has to it within snippets. This is actually kind of a cool view btw.

The only difference here is they would need to create a new type of database object that holds a specific type of snippet that says 'if I exist then render me as the parent object' (yes this isn't trivial as it sounds - I'm not ignorant of that fact).

The 'shortcut' topic would be an actual node with a single generated snippet type with some kind of key to generate the callback to the topic - short sweet and works just like everything else in the database (the actual topic can even get it's own auto-generated random name that we never see) - the real work would be in the render engine when finding *that* kind of snippet/topic rendering the referenced topic.

No relationship issues would exist that don't already based on how they are doing things.
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AEIOU
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Old March 24th, 2017, 08:56 PM
I agree, cast lists are what I use for people and that really is the best place to put them. But if there is a major NPC both in town and in the dungeon, I'd love to be able to put a copy in both of them to grab my attention. The master category would be contained in the cast list and the clone(s) would be grayed out like aliases.

I've tried to do the linkages via relationships to locations but they aren't as visible and obvious. I need a bigger flag to catch my attention.

For multiple clones to work though, they would need to be used sparingly. Or you'd end up with a massive cluster.... I can see these getting overused by new RW users much as containers tend to be now.

If work is going to happen on this, it isn't a high priority. It's a nice-to-have after calendars, player journals and maybe a thrice over on the GUI.
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kbs666
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Old March 25th, 2017, 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ckorik View Post
Right now they are storing the links between items somehow - because you can literally pull up a view of every link the item has to it within snippets. This is actually kind of a cool view btw.

The only difference here is they would need to create a new type of database object that holds a specific type of snippet that says 'if I exist then render me as the parent object' (yes this isn't trivial as it sounds - I'm not ignorant of that fact).

The 'shortcut' topic would be an actual node with a single generated snippet type with some kind of key to generate the callback to the topic - short sweet and works just like everything else in the database (the actual topic can even get it's own auto-generated random name that we never see) - the real work would be in the render engine when finding *that* kind of snippet/topic rendering the referenced topic.

No relationship issues would exist that don't already based on how they are doing things.
Yes, they would.

With each topic having only one container right now that relationship is simply an item in the record, probably. In order to allow for an unlimited number of containers, you have to create a separate table of nothing but topics and containers that has to be searched and joined to the main table every time you need to build the tree. And honestly it makes no sense to have a privileged container under that scheme, no matter where you find the name in the tree you should be able to open the topic directly.

I happen to agree that this is a desirable feature just that Rob is likely to have other opinions and this is why.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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Bidmaron
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Old March 25th, 2017, 03:37 AM
Of course if they would let you name a snippet and link to the snippet, the problem would go away. Think of how you can link to a particular segment of a web page using a target instead of the top of a text page.

Thus, you could place the magic shop owner as a section of the magic shop and then link to the name (which actually links to the named section just like a web page target) in the tavern he frequents and in his home building, as examples.

The feature request is here.

Last edited by Bidmaron; March 25th, 2017 at 03:41 AM.
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Ckorik
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Old March 25th, 2017, 04:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post
Yes, they would.

With each topic having only one container right now that relationship is simply an item in the record, probably. In order to allow for an unlimited number of containers, you have to create a separate table of nothing but topics and containers that has to be searched and joined to the main table every time you need to build the tree.
I can do this already if I want by creating a topic with the same name and creating a snippet with a link to the name I want to link to. The only difference between doing that and my suggestion would be:

* The program creates a random name for the shortcut topic
* The program only populates the topic with a (this would be new) snippet type that only has a reference to the original
* The program renders this special topic with the name of the Shortcut (perhaps greyed out - perhaps with a customized look?) as if it were the shortcut

Quote:
And honestly it makes no sense to have a privileged container under that scheme, no matter where you find the name in the tree you should be able to open the topic directly.
Oddly I can 'open the topic directly' now by clicking on any link from a snippet - so they already make links to the topic and track them - if you alter the topic location or name - the program will correct every link to that topic. The only difference here is the ability to see that 'link' as a topic name.

The link in a snippet is not the topic - nor am I in a container for the topic - so there is nothing new about this idea other than a bit of trickery on the back end.

Without seeing the rendering engine - you have no possible way of knowing if this is possible, insanely difficult, or even trivial - neither do I. We do know they are using custom controls for some things (like the date). I'll admit that it's possible the rendering engine is off limits which would make this kind of change difficult if not impossible - it's very difficult to guess because the program is so far along that some of the fundamentals vastly increase or decrease the kind of work needed to implement this kind of thing.


Quote:
I happen to agree that this is a desirable feature just that Rob is likely to have other opinions and this is why.
As much as I'd love the feature - I'd like to see all the dialogs work via keyboard (enter/esc/tab) also - it's jarring when so many useful functions are keyboard shortcuts and then you run into a dialog box that only accepts mouse input.

I'm trying very hard to hold off on a wishlist until they get the content market out and get a week off - because I'm sure the crunch they are in is enormous.
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kbs666
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Old March 25th, 2017, 04:38 AM
?

You seem to think RW is some sort of XML document or the like. It isn't. The underlying structure is a relational database. This has been confirmed and discussed many times.

Links are entirely separate from containers. You may think the two are equivalent but the program treats the two as distinct and separate.

my Realm Works videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZU...4DwXXkvmBXQ9Yw
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Silveras
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Old March 25th, 2017, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs666 View Post

Links are entirely separate from containers. You may think the two are equivalent but the program treats the two as distinct and separate.
And that's part of why I emphasize getting the terminology down. You can't meaningfully discuss technical topics if the people involved are not clear on distinctions. Blurred/fuzzy use of terms means your concept is also blurred/fuzzy and subject to errors.
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Silveras
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Old March 25th, 2017, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bidmaron View Post
Of course if they would let you name a snippet and link to the snippet, the problem would go away. Think of how you can link to a particular segment of a web page using a target instead of the top of a text page.

Thus, you could place the magic shop owner as a section of the magic shop and then link to the name (which actually links to the named section just like a web page target) in the tavern he frequents and in his home building, as examples.

The feature request is here.
I vaguely recall linking to specific Snippets as a maybe-future-long-term kind of something-they-want-to-do that was mentioned in the past.
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